Am I remembering this correctly?

Dec 08, 2011 08:26

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and to camp out in your park, strew trash all over, and forcibly block the local farmers' market.

blahblahblah, doing it wrong, politics

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Re: The best lack all conviction, while the worst / Are full of passionate intensity kirisutogomen December 9 2011, 12:58:42 UTC
I suspect that for anything I come up with you will crank the cynicism up to eleven and claim it's meaningless cosmetic change and a pathetic shell of what it could have been before the special interests got hold of it. So I'm tempted to just throw it back at you and ask if you believe if anything at all ever changes or if we're really all pawns of the Reptoid Jew Illuminati and any appearance of progress is a red herring to placate the addled masses.

But OK. Within our lifetimes, homosexual behavior used to be actually illegal in much of the country, and now not only is it increasingly accepted, but same-sex marriage rights are being established in one state after another, including not just the usual liberal coastal states, but core Jesusland hick states like Iowa.

This progress has been made from within the system, sometimes legislatively, sometimes judicially, and principally through moderate yet persistent persuasion. Anytime the proponents of equality started to get riled up, they discovered that their opposition had ten times their capacity for passionate fervor but basically no ability to effectively meet them on the field of ideas.

And as far as the 1960s protests go, I think it's safe to say that ending the war in Vietnam was their primary cause. We stayed in Southeast Asia until 1975. But angry criticism from the left sank LBJ's prospects for a second term so badly that he didn't even bother to run, and the Dems fired the guy who brought you the Civil Rights Act, Medicare, and Medicaid. Their 1968 convention collapsed into mindless mobs screaming obscenities at each other through clouds of tear gas, and we got Richard Nixon.

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Re: The best lack all conviction, while the worst / Are full of passionate intensity firstfrost December 9 2011, 13:51:11 UTC
And the Stonewall riots and gay rights demonstrations and protests and marches and National Coming Out Days have had nothing to do with any of the progress made?

Sure, I don't think anyone is saying that holding a sign magically gets you a tenth vote on the Supreme Court, or that Occupy Albequerque should get two Senators. But I don't think the effect of visible public action on the opinions of the public and the people they elect is negligible.

If nothing else, I think that the Occupy movement has carved out some mindshare again for populist liberal opinions, in a way that the Tea Party had previously managed to define populism as conservative and liberalism as only held by out of touch ivory tower seal-hugging academics and Washington insiders.

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arcanology December 9 2011, 14:13:19 UTC
I would actually put those both down to people being rowdy plus having good ideas. I don't think you get change done without both. It used to be that gays were quiet within the system that didn't accept them and nothing happened. Then they were loud enough that people had to notice they existed and also willing to take it to the courts and legislatures and so on. There are probably still people making the argument that pride parades are disgraceful and shouldn't be in public and don't get anything done anyway.

So I'll give you that progress is not made entirely by noisy rudeness, that's very true. But I don't see it being made without some noisy rudeness either, much as I would wish you could just present a good idea and make progress with it, it doesn't seem like you can get traction until you're willing to make it inconvenient to keep ignoring you.

I can't really talk intelligently about the end of the 60s, I'll have to go do some reading.

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Re: The best lack all conviction, while the worst / Are full of passionate intensity psychohist December 9 2011, 18:02:56 UTC
I can give some cynical examples. The New York Times' reasoned, albeit factually mistaken, series of articles on weapons of mass destruction in Iraq got Iraq invaded. Reasoned arguments got the TARP bailouts that the Occupy movement so objects to. Maybe the whole problem is that the people on the Occupy movement's side have failed to make reasoned arguments.

That said, the Tea Party movement elected an influential 25% of the House largely through popular protests. The main reason the Occupy movement is ineffectual is that they are tiny - their rallies are 1% of the size of the Tea Party rallies, for example.

Of course, maybe it's not the size, but that the Tea Party protests didn't turn popular opinion against them by leaving behind a lot of litter and tolerating rapists.

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Re: The best lack all conviction, while the worst / Are full of passionate intensity firstfrost December 9 2011, 18:53:51 UTC
Ahah, perhaps you do have data about big one-day protests, and how much trash is left behind and who paid for the cleaniup. I was unable to find that, but I assume you have something or you wouldn't be stating with such confidence that the Tea Party protests didn't litter.

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Re: The best lack all conviction, while the worst / Are full of passionate intensity psychohist December 9 2011, 19:21:57 UTC
I did see information on the subject, however I don't have links offhand, I'm afraid. It was in the context of a comparison between Tea Party protests and public worker labor movement protests by reporters who had covered both types of events.

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Re: The best lack all conviction, while the worst / Are full of passionate intensity arcanology December 9 2011, 19:17:57 UTC
Well they didn't covert anyone by tolerating racists, that's for sure.

Facile wordplay aside, while invading Iraq and TARP bailouts both got done by argument, neither was a societal change, they were both actions of government. I think while both the Tea Party and OWS want some actions of government to happen the big things they want are societal changes.

In fact in both cases the government actions they want are I think less coherent than the societal changes - OWS wants various weird things from the government that aren't well thought out, and the Tea Party wants less government spending that also doesn't take away any of their medicare etc.

Societal changes are what are important in the end, though it helps if the government doesn't actually have to be dragged into them kicking and screaming. It will get dragged eventually after all.

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Re: The best lack all conviction, while the worst / Are full of passionate intensity psychohist December 9 2011, 19:26:16 UTC
Stopping the Vietnam War was an action of government. Civil rights acts were actions of government.

I'm skeptical about peaceful societal change through protests.

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Re: The best lack all conviction, while the worst / Are full of passionate intensity arcanology December 9 2011, 19:32:33 UTC
It's not like government just got up and said "hey know what, I'm going to write some civil rights acts." That happened because that was where society was going. Vietnam similarly, the will to stay there waned in society at large. Women's right to vote wasn't just something that happened, it was pressured out of the government, though the government did eventually get it done. And so on.

Sure the protesters aren't writing the legislation, but it doesn't just happen.

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