Further ruminations on 2X13...
Well, Houses of the Holy is certainly the most thinky episode for me in a while. I truly wish I was one of those smart folk who could use their brain efficiently and work out my thoughts on the ep, recording them logicaly and wisely. But it just ain't so. I'm a little too Socaratic Seminar for that.
But I had a really interesting, conflicting convo with
quellefromage last night and I thought I'd throw it up here for anyone interested.
(btw - in reference to 'limbo'...Ms. Fromage and I are under the impression Dean's bow-legs would make an excellent limbo stick frame. This certainly illustrates our sick, perverted minds and shows why it's likely we'll both go to hell.)
Kimonkey7: so, you had asked before if i had done any thinky stuff on the ep...and I have, just haven't replied to your comment, because i think what this ep has done with me has been to scratch at some issues i have with my own faith...and your comment, in particular, sort of spun me like a whirly gig to the outer edges of it. it's sort of weird and personal without being weird and personal, and i haven't been able to get my mind around how to respond yet. so, yeah...
Quellefromage: Yeah, it's a sticky wicket, that ep
Kimonkey7: yup
Kimonkey7: which is a good thing, too
Quellefromage: yeah
Quellefromage: I liked it much better on second viewing
Kimonkey7: haven't done my second yet
Quellefromage: and I find it very interesting that the people who are the most meh about it are the atheists...who hate that Dean's defected. It's like he has Jesus for a girlfriend and the fangurls are MAD
Kimonkey7: lol...well, there's a sliver of that for me...not that i'm an atheist...i'm...agnostic. well, anti-organized religion for sure...but i do think it was all too easy. being someone who struggles with faith, i don't think seeing pole-heart guy would throw me to the other side...might make me think a lot, but not a total throw over
Quellefromage: I'm not sure he really underwent a total conversion, but, like the thing with the "shades of gray" his mind is now open to the possibility
Quellefromage: whereas, it totally wasn't before
Kimonkey7: yeah, i guess if you're going to draw that conclusion then my quibble is with the writing
Quellefromage: I mean, that isn't religious fervor on his face, it's confusion.
Kimonkey7: right. but i think it's his suggestion that it was the will of god, instead of saying, 'i don't know what i saw' which seems more like wonder and confusion to me
Quellefromage: Oh, but he knows what he saw, he's just trying out that interpretation.
Kimonkey7: nah, i don't buy that
Quellefromage: so, what do you think?
Quellefromage: he's undergone a conversion? I'd be okay with that
Kimonkey7: i think he wouldn't try out that interpretation out loud is what i think, not given his history...crap, this is a lot of thinking...i don't know for sure what i think this means for the show, whether they will handle it well, but what it means for dean, if this is the path they are going to take the character, hmm...there are deeeeeep ramifications for that. almost too deep to grasp, if we're honest at least psychologically.
Quellefromage: But they've given the EVIL side all the attention. It frankly just doesn't make sense to me that Dean WASN'T a believer. he may not have been a very good RELIGIOUS type, but the lack of belief, when he's seen how Christian rites affect evil (even the Demons believe) just doesn't ring true
Kimonkey7: well, hang on there...
Quellefromage: If this is too much to talk about now, it's okay. I'm not a big, religious nut.
Kimonkey7: no, no...as far as not ringing true because of the christian stuff working on evil...i mean, believing in GOD and believing in 'magic' are two different things. and i know that sounds lame, but, really, what is a spell but a prayer and vice versa? But believing in GOD specifically is different, too, than believing in Good and Evil.
Quellefromage: Okay, so for example, an exorcism. Depending on the Demon, and I probably shouldn't have said Christian, you're saying that just repeating a set of words will have an effect...doesn't matter if you believe them or not?
Kimonkey7: no, believing them counts, i think...but an exorcism is using a specific magic for a specific evil, just like rock salt repels ghosts...because of whatever reason, doesn't mean rock salt is an agent of god, just means rock salt is effective in that situation. i think dean 's beliefs lie more along those lines
Quellefromage: Hmmm.
Quellefromage: I'm thinking
Kimonkey7: lol
Quellefromage: it's hard.
Kimonkey7: i KNOW
Kimonkey7: it's awfully hard to suddenly have to try and define your imaginary tv boyfriend's belief system
Quellefromage: at least I'll be able to not pay attention at church by ruminating on religion instead of handcuffs...
Kimonkey7: lol
Kimonkey7: oh, you're going to hell for sure
Quellefromage: true. What does Dean believe? Why did he tell Layla he'd pray for her if he had no intention of doing so?
Kimonkey7: well, again, praying is a subjective term
Kimonkey7: i think he DID pray, just not maybe hands folded kind of praying
Quellefromage: so, what was his prayer? Dear Whatever is up there, take care of Layla
Quellefromage: cause she's HOT
Kimonkey7: well, it could have been. it could have been asking the universe, the good in the universe, to be with her, protect her...
Quellefromage: cause she's hot.
Kimonkey7: dude, you're SO going to hell
Quellefromage: I know
Kimonkey7: lol
Quellefromage: Okay, I'll buy that
Kimonkey7: look, I was raised catholic. i've got a priest on one side of the family, a lutheran minister on the other. i was babysat by the rectory maid, hung out in vatican II-inspired youth groups, CCD, the whole nine...so i get religion and i get NOT Getting religion. I'm just saying, i think dean would have a whole lot of questions given his background and experience and i think it would take a lot for him to move to one side or the other...more than he experienced in that ep.
Quellefromage: Then we have to consider that he was ready to believe, and this was enough for him. Maybe he wanted to...forgive God and his Angels for letting his mom die
Quellefromage: maybe he needs to think there's a way out for his Dad, then
Kimonkey7: nope
Kimonkey7: not buying that, either, not when that wound is so ill healed
Quellefromage: not gonna heal all at once, I still don't think that he's anything but willing to consider the idea that there is such a thing as the will of God and he might just have witnessed it...
Kimonkey7: right...but THAT opens up a whole gigantic motherfucking can of soul-disabling worms
Quellefromage: in what way?
Kimonkey7: oh, christ...how does it NOT?
Quellefromage: can he not still go after evil? Can he not still bang every waitress in sight?
Kimonkey7: if dean is to believe the rapist’s death is the will of god, that god punishes the wicked with death, he has to question why his mom and dad died. he loved his mom, she is innocence in his eyes. and his dad was a hero, said so himself in NS...so, then, he has to question if the will of god is to kill the wicked, were his mom and dad wicked? how? and if god just sometimes kills non-wicked people to, um, challenge us or whatever excuse the christians use, well, that raises a lot of issues as well, and those are really only quelled by faith - unquestioned belief, and i just don't think dean is there. at all.
Quellefromage: or does acknowledging the existence of the Will of God, and hence, God, make the lack of protection of his mom, his dad, even worse?
Quellefromage: see we were in the same place...
Kimonkey7: but there is a big wall between us
Quellefromage: Mr. Gorbachev!! Tear Down that WALL
Kimonkey7: chill, ronnie
Quellefromage: LOL
Kimonkey7: i'm just saying, for a very conflicted character, they have created a great deal more conflict, and if it is repaired by dean's sudden acceptance of circumstance as the will of god...well, to be honest, kripke's lost me there.
Quellefromage: But...the pole was a deliberate act...AUUUGGGHHH!! MY BRAIN!!!
Kimonkey7: how is an accident deliberate?
Quellefromage: um...it wasn't an accident
Kimonkey7: if he hadn't known who the guy was, just happened upon the accident, he would never say 'that's the will of god workin' right there...' and so i don't believe there was ENOUGH to make him make that leap, especially after sam confirmed the 'angel' was the dead priest
Kimonkey7: dean seems more likely to say 'toldya so'
Quellefromage: but the only reason the guy was there was because Dean was chasing him there
Kimonkey7: and so by CANON, wouldn't dean just take on that guilt?
Kimonkey7: he's going to suddenly absolve himself by envoking the will of god card?
Kimonkey7: it doesn't work for me
Quellefromage: not when he wasted a woman for catching a disease...he knew what the guy was
Kimonkey7: see? it's just so much CONFLICT
Quellefromage: yes
Kimonkey7: i mean, if i accept that, i have to assume dean now sees himself as an instrument of god...and i don't want that story line
Quellefromage: but, I don't think he's crippled by guilt. He acknowledges that he'd do anything for Sam, but I don't think he feels guilty about it
Kimonkey7: hmm...i think he does a little. i don't think he's soulless...i think that's why he says it SCARES him, what he's willing to do. why be scared unless there's guilt and worry there?
Kimonkey7: ah, but see, now i've played into your hand, haven't i?
Kimonkey7: BRAIN BROKEN
Kimonkey7: BRAIN BROKEN
Quellefromage: yep
Kimonkey7: it's too much to think about
Quellefromage: I've run circles around you logically.
Kimonkey7: and yet, i stand up against you still, because of the faith card
Quellefromage: LOL
Kimonkey7: my mom and my little sister are both born again...this raises conflict. though they KNOW according to their beliefs that I am going to hell, they will not admit to believing it, won't say it, skirt around it, recite bible passages about it, but won't OWN it...and shit like that colors a lot of what i think...so, yeah, this ep threw me and worries me and makes me sad and feel weird.
Quellefromage: I've got one of those in my family too. And really, they ain't right.
Kimonkey7: well, we could talk that all night
Quellefromage: My sister worries about my Catholic soul...crazy.
Kimonkey7: lol
Quellefromage: it doesn't seem to have made her happy
Quellefromage: just more uptight
Kimonkey7: right
Kimonkey7: well, considering i don't believe in heaven or hell, you can imagine the prayers being said in my name
Quellefromage: it's nice they pray for you...can't hurt
Quellefromage:
Kimonkey7: oh, boy
Quellefromage: or...CAN IT
Kimonkey7: exaaaactly
Quellefromage: yeah
Kimonkey7: OH! MY Soooooooouuuuul!
Kimonkey7: IT BUUUUUUURNINATES
Quellefromage: lol
Quellefromage: just go to Limbo...and we know where limbo is...right between those bowed legs
Kimonkey7: no shit
Quellefromage: (Hello, HELL)
Kimonkey7: that'd be someplace i'd be willing to spend eternity
Quellefromage: mmm. It would make it hard for him to walk though
Quellefromage: he should just lie down
Kimonkey7: who says he's goin' anywhere?
Quellefromage: right on top
Kimonkey7: yup
Kimonkey7: or, you know, underneath
Kimonkey7: either way
Quellefromage: sideways, upside down, underwater, in syrup,
Kimonkey7: i'm easy to please
Kimonkey7: as long as it's done slowly
Kimonkey7: the pleasing, i mean
Quellefromage: ah...
Quellefromage: this is much more fun than religion...
But I had a really interesting, conflicting convo with
quellefromage last night and I thought I'd throw it up here for anyone interested.
(btw - in reference to 'limbo'...Ms. Fromage and I are under the impression Dean's bow-legs would make an excellent limbo stick frame. This certainly illustrates our sick, perverted minds and shows why it's likely we'll both go to hell.)
Kimonkey7: so, you had asked before if i had done any thinky stuff on the ep...and I have, just haven't replied to your comment, because i think what this ep has done with me has been to scratch at some issues i have with my own faith...and your comment, in particular, sort of spun me like a whirly gig to the outer edges of it. it's sort of weird and personal without being weird and personal, and i haven't been able to get my mind around how to respond yet. so, yeah...
Quellefromage: Yeah, it's a sticky wicket, that ep
Kimonkey7: yup
Kimonkey7: which is a good thing, too
Quellefromage: yeah
Quellefromage: I liked it much better on second viewing
Kimonkey7: haven't done my second yet
Quellefromage: and I find it very interesting that the people who are the most meh about it are the atheists...who hate that Dean's defected. It's like he has Jesus for a girlfriend and the fangurls are MAD
Kimonkey7: lol...well, there's a sliver of that for me...not that i'm an atheist...i'm...agnostic. well, anti-organized religion for sure...but i do think it was all too easy. being someone who struggles with faith, i don't think seeing pole-heart guy would throw me to the other side...might make me think a lot, but not a total throw over
Quellefromage: I'm not sure he really underwent a total conversion, but, like the thing with the "shades of gray" his mind is now open to the possibility
Quellefromage: whereas, it totally wasn't before
Kimonkey7: yeah, i guess if you're going to draw that conclusion then my quibble is with the writing
Quellefromage: I mean, that isn't religious fervor on his face, it's confusion.
Kimonkey7: right. but i think it's his suggestion that it was the will of god, instead of saying, 'i don't know what i saw' which seems more like wonder and confusion to me
Quellefromage: Oh, but he knows what he saw, he's just trying out that interpretation.
Kimonkey7: nah, i don't buy that
Quellefromage: so, what do you think?
Quellefromage: he's undergone a conversion? I'd be okay with that
Kimonkey7: i think he wouldn't try out that interpretation out loud is what i think, not given his history...crap, this is a lot of thinking...i don't know for sure what i think this means for the show, whether they will handle it well, but what it means for dean, if this is the path they are going to take the character, hmm...there are deeeeeep ramifications for that. almost too deep to grasp, if we're honest at least psychologically.
Quellefromage: But they've given the EVIL side all the attention. It frankly just doesn't make sense to me that Dean WASN'T a believer. he may not have been a very good RELIGIOUS type, but the lack of belief, when he's seen how Christian rites affect evil (even the Demons believe) just doesn't ring true
Kimonkey7: well, hang on there...
Quellefromage: If this is too much to talk about now, it's okay. I'm not a big, religious nut.
Kimonkey7: no, no...as far as not ringing true because of the christian stuff working on evil...i mean, believing in GOD and believing in 'magic' are two different things. and i know that sounds lame, but, really, what is a spell but a prayer and vice versa? But believing in GOD specifically is different, too, than believing in Good and Evil.
Quellefromage: Okay, so for example, an exorcism. Depending on the Demon, and I probably shouldn't have said Christian, you're saying that just repeating a set of words will have an effect...doesn't matter if you believe them or not?
Kimonkey7: no, believing them counts, i think...but an exorcism is using a specific magic for a specific evil, just like rock salt repels ghosts...because of whatever reason, doesn't mean rock salt is an agent of god, just means rock salt is effective in that situation. i think dean 's beliefs lie more along those lines
Quellefromage: Hmmm.
Quellefromage: I'm thinking
Kimonkey7: lol
Quellefromage: it's hard.
Kimonkey7: i KNOW
Kimonkey7: it's awfully hard to suddenly have to try and define your imaginary tv boyfriend's belief system
Quellefromage: at least I'll be able to not pay attention at church by ruminating on religion instead of handcuffs...
Kimonkey7: lol
Kimonkey7: oh, you're going to hell for sure
Quellefromage: true. What does Dean believe? Why did he tell Layla he'd pray for her if he had no intention of doing so?
Kimonkey7: well, again, praying is a subjective term
Kimonkey7: i think he DID pray, just not maybe hands folded kind of praying
Quellefromage: so, what was his prayer? Dear Whatever is up there, take care of Layla
Quellefromage: cause she's HOT
Kimonkey7: well, it could have been. it could have been asking the universe, the good in the universe, to be with her, protect her...
Quellefromage: cause she's hot.
Kimonkey7: dude, you're SO going to hell
Quellefromage: I know
Kimonkey7: lol
Quellefromage: Okay, I'll buy that
Kimonkey7: look, I was raised catholic. i've got a priest on one side of the family, a lutheran minister on the other. i was babysat by the rectory maid, hung out in vatican II-inspired youth groups, CCD, the whole nine...so i get religion and i get NOT Getting religion. I'm just saying, i think dean would have a whole lot of questions given his background and experience and i think it would take a lot for him to move to one side or the other...more than he experienced in that ep.
Quellefromage: Then we have to consider that he was ready to believe, and this was enough for him. Maybe he wanted to...forgive God and his Angels for letting his mom die
Quellefromage: maybe he needs to think there's a way out for his Dad, then
Kimonkey7: nope
Kimonkey7: not buying that, either, not when that wound is so ill healed
Quellefromage: not gonna heal all at once, I still don't think that he's anything but willing to consider the idea that there is such a thing as the will of God and he might just have witnessed it...
Kimonkey7: right...but THAT opens up a whole gigantic motherfucking can of soul-disabling worms
Quellefromage: in what way?
Kimonkey7: oh, christ...how does it NOT?
Quellefromage: can he not still go after evil? Can he not still bang every waitress in sight?
Kimonkey7: if dean is to believe the rapist’s death is the will of god, that god punishes the wicked with death, he has to question why his mom and dad died. he loved his mom, she is innocence in his eyes. and his dad was a hero, said so himself in NS...so, then, he has to question if the will of god is to kill the wicked, were his mom and dad wicked? how? and if god just sometimes kills non-wicked people to, um, challenge us or whatever excuse the christians use, well, that raises a lot of issues as well, and those are really only quelled by faith - unquestioned belief, and i just don't think dean is there. at all.
Quellefromage: or does acknowledging the existence of the Will of God, and hence, God, make the lack of protection of his mom, his dad, even worse?
Quellefromage: see we were in the same place...
Kimonkey7: but there is a big wall between us
Quellefromage: Mr. Gorbachev!! Tear Down that WALL
Kimonkey7: chill, ronnie
Quellefromage: LOL
Kimonkey7: i'm just saying, for a very conflicted character, they have created a great deal more conflict, and if it is repaired by dean's sudden acceptance of circumstance as the will of god...well, to be honest, kripke's lost me there.
Quellefromage: But...the pole was a deliberate act...AUUUGGGHHH!! MY BRAIN!!!
Kimonkey7: how is an accident deliberate?
Quellefromage: um...it wasn't an accident
Kimonkey7: if he hadn't known who the guy was, just happened upon the accident, he would never say 'that's the will of god workin' right there...' and so i don't believe there was ENOUGH to make him make that leap, especially after sam confirmed the 'angel' was the dead priest
Kimonkey7: dean seems more likely to say 'toldya so'
Quellefromage: but the only reason the guy was there was because Dean was chasing him there
Kimonkey7: and so by CANON, wouldn't dean just take on that guilt?
Kimonkey7: he's going to suddenly absolve himself by envoking the will of god card?
Kimonkey7: it doesn't work for me
Quellefromage: not when he wasted a woman for catching a disease...he knew what the guy was
Kimonkey7: see? it's just so much CONFLICT
Quellefromage: yes
Kimonkey7: i mean, if i accept that, i have to assume dean now sees himself as an instrument of god...and i don't want that story line
Quellefromage: but, I don't think he's crippled by guilt. He acknowledges that he'd do anything for Sam, but I don't think he feels guilty about it
Kimonkey7: hmm...i think he does a little. i don't think he's soulless...i think that's why he says it SCARES him, what he's willing to do. why be scared unless there's guilt and worry there?
Kimonkey7: ah, but see, now i've played into your hand, haven't i?
Kimonkey7: BRAIN BROKEN
Kimonkey7: BRAIN BROKEN
Quellefromage: yep
Kimonkey7: it's too much to think about
Quellefromage: I've run circles around you logically.
Kimonkey7: and yet, i stand up against you still, because of the faith card
Quellefromage: LOL
Kimonkey7: my mom and my little sister are both born again...this raises conflict. though they KNOW according to their beliefs that I am going to hell, they will not admit to believing it, won't say it, skirt around it, recite bible passages about it, but won't OWN it...and shit like that colors a lot of what i think...so, yeah, this ep threw me and worries me and makes me sad and feel weird.
Quellefromage: I've got one of those in my family too. And really, they ain't right.
Kimonkey7: well, we could talk that all night
Quellefromage: My sister worries about my Catholic soul...crazy.
Kimonkey7: lol
Quellefromage: it doesn't seem to have made her happy
Quellefromage: just more uptight
Kimonkey7: right
Kimonkey7: well, considering i don't believe in heaven or hell, you can imagine the prayers being said in my name
Quellefromage: it's nice they pray for you...can't hurt
Quellefromage:
Kimonkey7: oh, boy
Quellefromage: or...CAN IT
Kimonkey7: exaaaactly
Quellefromage: yeah
Kimonkey7: OH! MY Soooooooouuuuul!
Kimonkey7: IT BUUUUUUURNINATES
Quellefromage: lol
Quellefromage: just go to Limbo...and we know where limbo is...right between those bowed legs
Kimonkey7: no shit
Quellefromage: (Hello, HELL)
Kimonkey7: that'd be someplace i'd be willing to spend eternity
Quellefromage: mmm. It would make it hard for him to walk though
Quellefromage: he should just lie down
Kimonkey7: who says he's goin' anywhere?
Quellefromage: right on top
Kimonkey7: yup
Kimonkey7: or, you know, underneath
Kimonkey7: either way
Quellefromage: sideways, upside down, underwater, in syrup,
Kimonkey7: i'm easy to please
Kimonkey7: as long as it's done slowly
Kimonkey7: the pleasing, i mean
Quellefromage: ah...
Quellefromage: this is much more fun than religion...