i agree with kenj on that last bit- we need to learn to deal with stupid systems and its a sad fact that we have to also learn to do things we just don't like doing. i hated high school, and found most of it pretty useless, but i think that many kids just would not be able to handle taking their education into their own hands. Some are just too immature (not in a derogatory sense, but just that some kids are more mature at 14 than others are at 18) to handle a structureless or self-structured environment. I look at my brothers and some people i have had classes with and probably even myself, and unschooling or selfschooling just would not have worked. I find that the university system is pretty well laid out- lecture-style in the younger years seminars in the upper years with discussion groups throughout. I would love to ditch some of the compulsory courses, and i would if they were not mandatory, but they are things i need to have taken in order for my degree to mean anything. I dunno about high school, i think of it as 4 years of sucking it up in order to move on to better things. And as for elementary and middle school i really really believe those kids need someone telling them what to do. I know i was a little shit, especially in middle school, and was not old enough to appreciate learning at all. I think education is a tricky thing because it is so individual. Yet the government still needs to make sure everyone gets at least a basic education. So we make due.
And see I disagree - there are countless examples of kids taking their education into their own hands and, as a result, becoming more responsible and mature. The school systems make kids lazy and passive by spoon-feeding them information and make most kids expect that in order to learn something, they need a teacher to essentially shove it in their face. This essentially breeds the immaturity and laziness we see in most schooled kids. The reason why we think (and so many kids think) kids can't deal with a structureless environment is because they have been institutionalized. But if they are given freedom to investigate the topics that interest them, and given the space and time to develop interests in an unpressured environment, they will WANT to learn. Furthurmore they will gain a greater sense of responsibility and self worth for having created it on their own. I equate it with the sense of self worth I got when I was able to organize and achieve my trip to Ireland all by myself.
As for learning to do things we don't like, you don't need school for that. As my friend just pointed out, you don't clean the toilet because you WANT to, you clean it because it needs to be done. Life is full of examples of doing things you don't want to achieve a greater good. Examples that don't necessarily need school.
Why suck it up for 4 years when you could use those 4 years of busywork and uselessness and do something PRODUCTIVE with your life? Why waste your time at school when you could actually be learning?
And just because you aren't at school doesn't mean you are not disciplined, you still have parents, mentors, friends. Yes, kids can be brats sometimes, but a lot of that also comes from your peers. I know my brother got a hell of a lot more bratty when he went into school, because he was surrounded by kids who all, like him, didn't want to be there and reacted by pulling pranks and not listening. Besides, people can be bratty and a jerk to others and learn through experience and trial and error that it doesn't work so well. For example, I learn that pouring water over my sister's head to wake her up in the morning results in bad consequences because she kicks me, and my parents ground me. I didn't need school for that.
As for not being old enough to appreciate learning, I would argue that you weren't young enough. Before we start going to school, the world is a wonderful place full of colours and tastes and smells and images. Remember when you were three and made your first snow angel? Or had your first bite of apple pie. Learning experientially was fun then. But then we were made to go to school and told that learning meant sitting in a classroom and listening to a teacher and sitting up straight? Of course we hated that.
*Cough*, hi, devil's advocate here, just thought I'd interject...
"This essentially breeds the immaturity and laziness we see in most schooled kids"
"Why suck it up for 4 years when you could use those 4 years of busywork and uselessness and do something PRODUCTIVE with your life? Why waste your time at school when you could actually be learning?"
These are generalizations, as well the last one is really a matter of opinion. It kinda sounds like you are trying to justify yourself to yourself, rather than us...
I'll just speak for me: you're allowed to have a different opinion, and so am I, and I think so is everyone else. But I think it's a bit narrow-minded to be so completely dismissive of formal schooling, considering your highest level of *formal* education is high school, and once you enter post secondary education, your opinion might change based on those experiences, just as it has changed based on your experiences at your hojskole (am I close to getting the spelling?). Also really, take sociology or read some books about it, it will make you feel less frustrated and more empowered about these kinds of things, knowing that there are people who feel the same way... if you are going to be in the same place long enough I should mail you my sociology textbook (its light, no worries). Also, constructivism, it's essentially what you are describing over and over, building your own learning!
My high school experience sucked socially, but in that sense I learned alot about who i am and how i react to different situations, which among newer educational experiences has shaped who I am, and I like who I am. Book-smart wise I actually learned alot of things that have carried over into things I want/need to know today. However maybe I got more out of it than the average person.
Also, devil's advocate, part 2... just wondering what country your book is from? Canada's educational system was originally based off the british eons ago, but was shaped by some local happenings... american and british (past and present) systems of education are quite different from one another, and from Canada. Also, your home-schooled friends that you were mentioning, was that in north america or europe? there are actually different systems of home schooling for every country, province, school board, etc. and they have curriculum they need to cover, it's not as free as one might immediately think. Where the freedom lies is *how* it is covered, which could provide a stronger learning experience for the child if they are taught in methods that complement their learning styles. This isn't as free in a classroom because different children have different learning styles, and all children have a few in which they are strong. It is up to the teacher to come up with new, dynamic learning strategies in order to keep as many children engaged as possible. Teacher education programs aren't standardized in places like the states, where any one can teach, and in Canada there are different standards for each province. So it matters where that books was written because children in different areas (though they may obtain a similar social experience) will obtain a different learning experience. As well, not just anyone can home school their children, they have to be a certain amount of qualified, and able to prove that they can thoroughly educate their children in a variety of subjects. So there are problems everywhere, just like in any other organisation.
(just realised that was one big paragraph, hope some of that made sense)
~***constructivism ~history of canadian educational systems ~different theories of education and how they affected what and how people learn: functionalism, conflict theory, deschooling, multicultural education / anti-racist theory you'd probably find interesting as well ~the hidden curriculum ~multiple intelligence theory (different learning styles I was mentioning)
AND cause I'm so nice ( ;D ) I am going to send you the essay I wrote this year about the hidden currriculum... I would send you the one I wrote about multiple intelligences too, but it's on the pc at the apartment.
I do agree with quite a bit of what you have been saying but I do think that you're being too negative/general/just a tad nihilist about the whole thing... this would be SO much easier over the fucking telephone or in person cause then we could actually converse about it, instead of typing back and forth like this (we work better while speaking cause we complete each others sentences until we understand what the other one is getting at :P )
Firstly, my issue isn't with university or college, (these are optional forms of schooling) but with high school. Which I have a full experience of, thank you very much. I am a little shocked that you would infer that, simply because I have not yet gone to university, my opinion is somehow less valid, or holds less weight? Going to University or post secondary school isn't the only way to get an education, my dear. It is a perfectly legitimate and valid one, but it isn't The Only Way.
Secondly, I perfectly intend to read up on the subject much more. I am not going to simply read one book and think I am fully educated on the matter. I read the essay you sent me and found it quite interesting, and I intend to read some sociology as well as other books I have heard of on alternative education. But of course I can only read one book at a time.
Thirdly, my frusteration (as I said in the email) does not stem from thinking I am alone in my opinions, quite the contrary I know quite a few people personally who share or have very similar opinions. And I know there are organizations and communities out there about this kind of thing. That being said, I would still like to read more on the topic to broaden my outlook.
Of course your high school experience shaped who you are, and that is cool that it worked out so well for you. My high school experience shaped me too, but what really shaped me was the 2 years I have spent out of school, finding out who I am, and generally unlearning many of the lessons I internalized in high school. And what I am frustrated about is that I could have done that shaping myself and far more efficiently than the school. I have learned far more useful things in my 2 years of school than in my entire high school career, and it's disheartening to realize I could have learned that years earlier, and gotten a head start on life.
My book is from the states, and I didn't know that our educational system is different than the states, I will look into that for sure. That being said, the problem with compulsory schooling, in my view, is that it IS compulsory and kids are forced to learn things they would rather not be learning. Coupled with the fact that it is often in a boring, classroom environment and in a social environment that ostracizes those who actually like being there, (kids call each other geeks and nerds) it conditions kids to not only hate the classroom setting but to hate the style of learning that goes with it. I see it in my brother... in kindergarten and grade 1 he loved school, but after hearing my sister and I complain about homework and seeing the other kids start to complain about schoolwork too, he started to adapt that mentality. His love for learning was, at school, at least, crushed. I mean sure he reads at home and there is still a flicker of that burning curiosity we all feel as kids, but this willingness to learn has suddenly been delegated to extra-curricular activities and takes a second to the education he DOESN'T want in school.
In that sense, it doesn't matter how good the teachers are (and there are tons of good teachers out there!), because I think the system stifles their ability to teach to their best ability. Another example of this is putting them in a place of authority. If you could befriend your teacher, if he or she could act like themselves instead of needing to enforce a bunch of rules, maybe students would feel more comfortable around him or her and less pressured. But that is against the rules. Teachers have to be a figure of authority and in that way cannot truly reach all their students.
As for the not-just-anyone-can-homeschool thing, the aim of unschooling or deschooling is that the student themselves direct their own education, and their parents are simply there to answer questions, help research to find resources, and be supportive. Doesn't take that much qualification (although I know the law requires it).
My unschooled friends were in West Virginia, one of them get her high school degree by doing the standardized tests every year, the other one decided she would rather not take the tests. Both still got accepted into university (but one decided that learning approach wasn't for her and is now directing her own education in dance by dancing at a studio and mentoring under professional dancers).
Another thing is that a lot of unschoolers manage to follow their curriculum doing the projects they love. For example, say you want to build a windmill, you are incorporating physics, woodwork, math, and history (of windmills) into that one project. If you are planning a solo bike expedition in the Andes you are incorporating math (budgeting, distances), geography, history (of the area), social sciences (the culture of the area), languages (learning spanish), and phys ed (biking). Basically the concept allows for kids to study the subjects in a way that interests THEM.
didn't imply that at all, do you really think I would tell my best friend that your opinion isn't valid? please calm down. I said that since high school is the last level you've completed, your opinion of it might change when you do a higher level of formal education. Formal education means being in the system, elementary, high school, or post secondary. Technically your schooling in denmark wasn't formal, based on what we are talking about. Your experience there changed your opinion about high school. Chances are your level of formal schooling will too.
Also don't be so hard on yourself. It's not like you could have moved to the states or europe as a little kid to educate yourself. Realistically your parents probably wouldn't have had the time or resources for an alternate form of schooling, just like the majority of canadian parents. So don't feel too jipped. And whether or not you think so, I liked who you were in high school and alot of other people i know did too. So we can thank it for that. I still like you now of course (lol)
I think you misunderstand me. My issue isn't WITH formal education, it is with compulsory education, as outlined above. Being in Ry didn't change my opinion on high school, per se, it just confirmed some ideas I had made IN high school about their grading system. I realized the ideas I had could work and that they were actually in action somewhere. I realized other people thought the same about education.
And like I have mentioned before, unschooling doesn't require a lot of time from the parents, it is directed by the child, the parents are simply there to answer questions. Kids learn how to research and find the answers themselves, or if they can't, find the right people to answer their questions. And I am not saying i would have been able to move to Europe as a little kid, but as a teen I could have travelled on my own and besides, it isn't even the travelling. Europe was just a setting for me to learn that I could control my own life by doing what I want to do with it. I could have regained that control at home as well, simply by learning to research and complete my own projects and gaining the self confidence and sense of self worth that comes with this experience.
Have you ever read/heard John Taylor Gatto's books or talks? I was just listening to one now, really interesting. He was teacher of the year award in New York state.
"And like I have mentioned before, unschooling doesn't require a lot of time from the parents, it is directed by the child, the parents are simply there to answer questions. Kids learn how to research and find the answers themselves, or if they can't, find the right people to answer their questions."
thats definately valid but kind of unrealistic. it certainly wouldnt work for everybody but it probably would have with a kid like you.
man I should tell you about this girl I know at school, her boyfriend was in the circus all his life and so he had schooling very much as you describe! he had quite the interesting life... they were pretty rich, so if he wanted to learn about a place, they could just go there and see. He wants to be a teacher now so he can share all of the things hes learned with little kiddies. cute eh? his gf told me that he actually finds it pretty hard to be in a classroom and dont schoolwork on a schedule though, cause hes so not used to that kind of learning.
See I believe it isn't nearly as unrealistic as we think! Kids are lazy and immature because we tell them "You are a kid, therefore you are lazy and immature and you must listen to us knowledgeable adults". But the book I am reading provides COUNTLESS examples of kids from 12 to 17 who have done remarkably mature things. They can't ALL be anomalies. One kid in the 60's set out when he was 16 to sail around the world alone. We sailed for 5 years and returned with a wife and a child on the way. Another girl sailed around the world when she was 16 or 17 with absolutely no previous knowledge of sailing, she just got on a boat and learned along the way. Also alone. Her book is called 'Maiden Voyage'. Another 16 year old planned and completed a solo bike tour through South America. Okay all my examples include travel and that is because those are the ones that stick out in my mind.
I think education is a tricky thing because it is so individual. Yet the government still needs to make sure everyone gets at least a basic education. So we make due.
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As for learning to do things we don't like, you don't need school for that. As my friend just pointed out, you don't clean the toilet because you WANT to, you clean it because it needs to be done. Life is full of examples of doing things you don't want to achieve a greater good. Examples that don't necessarily need school.
Why suck it up for 4 years when you could use those 4 years of busywork and uselessness and do something PRODUCTIVE with your life? Why waste your time at school when you could actually be learning?
And just because you aren't at school doesn't mean you are not disciplined, you still have parents, mentors, friends. Yes, kids can be brats sometimes, but a lot of that also comes from your peers. I know my brother got a hell of a lot more bratty when he went into school, because he was surrounded by kids who all, like him, didn't want to be there and reacted by pulling pranks and not listening. Besides, people can be bratty and a jerk to others and learn through experience and trial and error that it doesn't work so well. For example, I learn that pouring water over my sister's head to wake her up in the morning results in bad consequences because she kicks me, and my parents ground me. I didn't need school for that.
As for not being old enough to appreciate learning, I would argue that you weren't young enough. Before we start going to school, the world is a wonderful place full of colours and tastes and smells and images. Remember when you were three and made your first snow angel? Or had your first bite of apple pie. Learning experientially was fun then. But then we were made to go to school and told that learning meant sitting in a classroom and listening to a teacher and sitting up straight? Of course we hated that.
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"This essentially breeds the immaturity and laziness we see in most schooled kids"
"Why suck it up for 4 years when you could use those 4 years of busywork and uselessness and do something PRODUCTIVE with your life? Why waste your time at school when you could actually be learning?"
These are generalizations, as well the last one is really a matter of opinion. It kinda sounds like you are trying to justify yourself to yourself, rather than us...
I'll just speak for me: you're allowed to have a different opinion, and so am I, and I think so is everyone else. But I think it's a bit narrow-minded to be so completely dismissive of formal schooling, considering your highest level of *formal* education is high school, and once you enter post secondary education, your opinion might change based on those experiences, just as it has changed based on your experiences at your hojskole (am I close to getting the spelling?). Also really, take sociology or read some books about it, it will make you feel less frustrated and more empowered about these kinds of things, knowing that there are people who feel the same way... if you are going to be in the same place long enough I should mail you my sociology textbook (its light, no worries). Also, constructivism, it's essentially what you are describing over and over, building your own learning!
My high school experience sucked socially, but in that sense I learned alot about who i am and how i react to different situations, which among newer educational experiences has shaped who I am, and I like who I am. Book-smart wise I actually learned alot of things that have carried over into things I want/need to know today. However maybe I got more out of it than the average person.
Also, devil's advocate, part 2... just wondering what country your book is from? Canada's educational system was originally based off the british eons ago, but was shaped by some local happenings... american and british (past and present) systems of education are quite different from one another, and from Canada. Also, your home-schooled friends that you were mentioning, was that in north america or europe? there are actually different systems of home schooling for every country, province, school board, etc. and they have curriculum they need to cover, it's not as free as one might immediately think. Where the freedom lies is *how* it is covered, which could provide a stronger learning experience for the child if they are taught in methods that complement their learning styles. This isn't as free in a classroom because different children have different learning styles, and all children have a few in which they are strong. It is up to the teacher to come up with new, dynamic learning strategies in order to keep as many children engaged as possible. Teacher education programs aren't standardized in places like the states, where any one can teach, and in Canada there are different standards for each province. So it matters where that books was written because children in different areas (though they may obtain a similar social experience) will obtain a different learning experience. As well, not just anyone can home school their children, they have to be a certain amount of qualified, and able to prove that they can thoroughly educate their children in a variety of subjects. So there are problems everywhere, just like in any other organisation.
(just realised that was one big paragraph, hope some of that made sense)
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~***constructivism
~history of canadian educational systems
~different theories of education and how they affected what and how people learn: functionalism, conflict theory, deschooling, multicultural education / anti-racist theory you'd probably find interesting as well
~the hidden curriculum
~multiple intelligence theory (different learning styles I was mentioning)
AND cause I'm so nice ( ;D ) I am going to send you the essay I wrote this year about the hidden currriculum... I would send you the one I wrote about multiple intelligences too, but it's on the pc at the apartment.
I do agree with quite a bit of what you have been saying but I do think that you're being too negative/general/just a tad nihilist about the whole thing... this would be SO much easier over the fucking telephone or in person cause then we could actually converse about it, instead of typing back and forth like this (we work better while speaking cause we complete each others sentences until we understand what the other one is getting at :P )
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Secondly, I perfectly intend to read up on the subject much more. I am not going to simply read one book and think I am fully educated on the matter. I read the essay you sent me and found it quite interesting, and I intend to read some sociology as well as other books I have heard of on alternative education. But of course I can only read one book at a time.
Thirdly, my frusteration (as I said in the email) does not stem from thinking I am alone in my opinions, quite the contrary I know quite a few people personally who share or have very similar opinions. And I know there are organizations and communities out there about this kind of thing. That being said, I would still like to read more on the topic to broaden my outlook.
Of course your high school experience shaped who you are, and that is cool that it worked out so well for you. My high school experience shaped me too, but what really shaped me was the 2 years I have spent out of school, finding out who I am, and generally unlearning many of the lessons I internalized in high school. And what I am frustrated about is that I could have done that shaping myself and far more efficiently than the school. I have learned far more useful things in my 2 years of school than in my entire high school career, and it's disheartening to realize I could have learned that years earlier, and gotten a head start on life.
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In that sense, it doesn't matter how good the teachers are (and there are tons of good teachers out there!), because I think the system stifles their ability to teach to their best ability. Another example of this is putting them in a place of authority. If you could befriend your teacher, if he or she could act like themselves instead of needing to enforce a bunch of rules, maybe students would feel more comfortable around him or her and less pressured. But that is against the rules. Teachers have to be a figure of authority and in that way cannot truly reach all their students.
As for the not-just-anyone-can-homeschool thing, the aim of unschooling or deschooling is that the student themselves direct their own education, and their parents are simply there to answer questions, help research to find resources, and be supportive. Doesn't take that much qualification (although I know the law requires it).
My unschooled friends were in West Virginia, one of them get her high school degree by doing the standardized tests every year, the other one decided she would rather not take the tests. Both still got accepted into university (but one decided that learning approach wasn't for her and is now directing her own education in dance by dancing at a studio and mentoring under professional dancers).
Another thing is that a lot of unschoolers manage to follow their curriculum doing the projects they love. For example, say you want to build a windmill, you are incorporating physics, woodwork, math, and history (of windmills) into that one project. If you are planning a solo bike expedition in the Andes you are incorporating math (budgeting, distances), geography, history (of the area), social sciences (the culture of the area), languages (learning spanish), and phys ed (biking). Basically the concept allows for kids to study the subjects in a way that interests THEM.
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Also don't be so hard on yourself. It's not like you could have moved to the states or europe as a little kid to educate yourself. Realistically your parents probably wouldn't have had the time or resources for an alternate form of schooling, just like the majority of canadian parents. So don't feel too jipped. And whether or not you think so, I liked who you were in high school and alot of other people i know did too. So we can thank it for that. I still like you now of course (lol)
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And like I have mentioned before, unschooling doesn't require a lot of time from the parents, it is directed by the child, the parents are simply there to answer questions. Kids learn how to research and find the answers themselves, or if they can't, find the right people to answer their questions. And I am not saying i would have been able to move to Europe as a little kid, but as a teen I could have travelled on my own and besides, it isn't even the travelling. Europe was just a setting for me to learn that I could control my own life by doing what I want to do with it. I could have regained that control at home as well, simply by learning to research and complete my own projects and gaining the self confidence and sense of self worth that comes with this experience.
Have you ever read/heard John Taylor Gatto's books or talks? I was just listening to one now, really interesting. He was teacher of the year award in New York state.
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"And like I have mentioned before, unschooling doesn't require a lot of time from the parents, it is directed by the child, the parents are simply there to answer questions. Kids learn how to research and find the answers themselves, or if they can't, find the right people to answer their questions."
thats definately valid but kind of unrealistic. it certainly wouldnt work for everybody but it probably would have with a kid like you.
man I should tell you about this girl I know at school, her boyfriend was in the circus all his life and so he had schooling very much as you describe! he had quite the interesting life... they were pretty rich, so if he wanted to learn about a place, they could just go there and see. He wants to be a teacher now so he can share all of the things hes learned with little kiddies. cute eh? his gf told me that he actually finds it pretty hard to be in a classroom and dont schoolwork on a schedule though, cause hes so not used to that kind of learning.
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Also your circus friend sounds fascinating!!
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