Smartass answer: Because TOS!Kirk did it and Orci and Kurtzman were being cute, trying to appeal, all inside-joke-like, to we Trek diehards who grew up on TOS (the same reason Sulu's fencing was mentioned, and we get the scene where Bones got his nickname *sniff* great scene, that). ;-)
Answer as the Kirk lover I am:
#2 AND #3
I summed up my feelings on the Kobayashi Maru in my fic "Entire of Himself"...
And that feeling of isolation only magnifies when you find out that you’re being brought up on charges of cheating on the Kobayashi Maru. If ever there was an indication in your life, an exact moment you could point to and say, ‘see, universe? No one gets it! Gets me!’ this is it. Because you had thought that cheating was the solution to the test. The test was unwinnable, there had been no way around it. In the way it had been programmed, it was impossible for the Captain and crew of this imaginary vessel to come out alive. You should know, you had already tried it twice before. And it was after that second time that you had developed a theory that perhaps the answer was changing the parameters of the test itself so it could be won. You know, that the solution was meant to be little unorthodox, a little, oh horrors of all horrors, outside the box. That maybe, oh-god-how-could-you-even-suggest-this, Starfleet wanted its captains to be something shocking, like creative.
Apparently not, fuck your life.
But I do believe it also ties into your #3 and here's why. When Pike was recruiting Jim into Starfleet, their exchange went like this:
Christopher Pike: I couldn't believe it when the bartender told me who you were. James T. Kirk: Who am I, Captain Pike? Christopher Pike: Your father's son. James T. Kirk: [Turns toward the bar] Can I get another one? Christopher Pike: For my dissertation, I was assigned the USS Kelvin. Something I admired about your Dad. He didn't believe in no-win scenarios James T. Kirk: Sure learned his lesson! Christopher Pike: Well, it depends on how you define winning. You're here aren't you? James T. Kirk: [as beer is brought to him] Thanks. Christopher Pike: You know that instinct to leap without looking, that was his nature too. And in my opinion it's something Star Fleet's lost. James T. Kirk: [laughing] Why are you talkin' to me, man? Christopher Pike: 'Cause I looked up your file while you were drooling on the floor. Your aptitude tests are off the charts, so what is it? You like being the only genius level repeat offender in the Midwest? James T. Kirk: Maybe I love it. Christopher Pike: Look, so your Dad died. You can settle for a less than ordinary life. Or do you feel like you were meant for something better? Something special? Enlist in Star Fleet.
Basically, Jim was recruited on the premise that he, like his father before him, did not accept a no-win scenario, and liked to leap without looking. Psychologically, someone who was raised under the stigma of a father who died so that you may live, a father who was considered a hero of the ages, and then the man you look up to, the one that recruited you into Starfleet, not only compares the two of you, but dares you to do better, which would make you more determined not to accept a no-win scenario... Yeah, I can see why Jim might be motivated to cheat. He underwent a lot of growth in that movie, from joining Starfleet for the sake of getting people to see him, Jim Kirk, and not the shadow of his father, to, at the end, believing in the mission for his own sake and finding his purpose.
Though, even as a Kirk-lover, I can agree that what he did to Gaila was a mean-ass thing to do. Not his finest hour, I agree.
Another question might be, why did TOS!Kirk do it? Because his motivation, I believe would be different but also the same. We know, by his own admission, that TOS!Kirk was a serious student while in the academy, accepted at a young age and felt indebted to his benefactors thus motivated to not only do well but to exceed expectations. We also know that TOS!Kirk graduated in the top five percent of his class.
Quotes from "The Wrath of Khan" (god I love this movie):
Spock: The Kobayashi Maru scenario frequently wreaks havoc on students and equipment. As I recall you took the test three times yourself. Your final solution was, shall we say, unique? Kirk: It had the virtue of never having been tried.
And later...
Saavik: Admiral, may I ask you a question? Kirk: What's on your mind, Lieutenant? Saavik: The Kobayashi Maru, sir. Kirk: Are you asking me if we're playing out that scenario now? Saavik: On the test, sir... will you tell me what you did? I would really like to know. McCoy: Lieutenant, you are looking at the only Starfleet cadet who ever beat the no-win scenario. Saavik: How? Kirk: I reprogrammed the simulation so it was possible to rescue the ship. Saavik: What? David Marcus: He cheated. Kirk: I changed the conditions of the test; got a commendation for original thinking. I don't like to lose. Saavik: Then you never faced that situation... faced death. Kirk: I don't believe in the no-win scenario.
In his case I would say a thirst to prove himself, which, essentially, yes, can apply to both Kirks.
I would say TOS Kirk had his reasons less grave. I don't like to lose pretty much covers it. We could go digging (some of us have :D) of course about why he hates losing so much, and what it means for him, but that's like a whole other story.
The thing is, it's a matter of philosiphy from a certain point. What is more difficult: to try and find the solution under impossible conditions or to say that conditions are wrong and change them? Because this is the difference between a test room and the real world. Which sort of makes one wonder -- which position is more defeat -ish?
We could go digging (some of us have :D) of course about why he hates losing so much, and what it means for him, but that's like a whole other story.
...Getting a TOS fic idea. Damnit, I'm supposed to be packing. ;-)
Which sort of makes one wonder -- which position is more defeat -ish?
Good point, I never thought of it that way. I would say, knee-jerk reaction, both. As Jim learned, perhaps for the first time, at the end of tWoK... sometimes winning (Spock saving hundreds of lives with his actions) is also losing and/or paying a price that too dear to ones heart (Jim being forced to confront a world without Spock at his side). You can shape the test, but you can't shape the fallout.
Yeah. Which is why, I'll just say it again, it makes every sense in TOS
Harve Bennett was an amazing writer. I would hazard to say unsurpassed. If I were Abrams, Orci, and Kurtzman and assuming Bennett is still alive, I would definitely be consulting his ass. For serious. ST:tWoK is gripping, moving storytelling to this day, almost thirty years after its release (and so is the other ST film Bennett penned, VH). That's saying something.
I'm not dissing Reboot, because I love it. I really do. I thought Orci and Kurtzman did a great job on capturing Star Trek's wittier side. And the character insights were captivating. But little inconsistencies, like the one you're talking about here (and a few others I wont bring up at the risk of starting a wank fest) could be ironed out in the next film to bring more of a balance.
and a few others ... could be ironed out in the next film to bring more of a balance.
Well, amen to that. Personally, I'm not so optimistic about it, in fact, I'm sort of dreading what they might come up with next, but for a while there's still hope, right? ;)
I never doubted you as a psychologist who has made Jim kirk her focus. :D
Those are interesting thoughts, bb. I must admit that the whole KM thing never made much sense to me in nuverse. The idea of the test, for starters, is stupid, because if everyone knows about the test, if it's common knowledge that 'No one passes Kobayashi Maru,' then TBH, I don't understand why any of the cadets would take it seriously. Starfleet needed a test of character -- and that is what they came up with? The same ship that you're unable to save? WTH?
Spock programming it makes no sense at all. Except for -- smartass answer -- to show that he and Kirk hated each other on site. Which, seriously? There was no better way?
In fact, that wholse scene is directed in such a way that, depending on your sympathies, you are forced to think that either one of them is a jerk. Both their arguments make very little sense. So far, the only piece of fiction that sticks with me that made it all work for both of them was by seperis, and she had to invent a subplot to explain it.
I'm sort of pissed, because Orci and Kurtzman didn't drink their coffee that day or something, and now we're stuck with a lacune in common sense the size of a small black hole. And I'm, like, inordinately attached to common sense. ;)
So yeah, it's something to think about, though it's making my teeth ache. >.<
Answer as the Kirk lover I am:
#2 AND #3
I summed up my feelings on the Kobayashi Maru in my fic "Entire of Himself"...
And that feeling of isolation only magnifies when you find out that you’re being brought up on charges of cheating on the Kobayashi Maru. If ever there was an indication in your life, an exact moment you could point to and say, ‘see, universe? No one gets it! Gets me!’ this is it. Because you had thought that cheating was the solution to the test. The test was unwinnable, there had been no way around it. In the way it had been programmed, it was impossible for the Captain and crew of this imaginary vessel to come out alive. You should know, you had already tried it twice before. And it was after that second time that you had developed a theory that perhaps the answer was changing the parameters of the test itself so it could be won. You know, that the solution was meant to be little unorthodox, a little, oh horrors of all horrors, outside the box. That maybe, oh-god-how-could-you-even-suggest-this, Starfleet wanted its captains to be something shocking, like creative.
Apparently not, fuck your life.
But I do believe it also ties into your #3 and here's why. When Pike was recruiting Jim into Starfleet, their exchange went like this:
Christopher Pike: I couldn't believe it when the bartender told me who you were.
James T. Kirk: Who am I, Captain Pike?
Christopher Pike: Your father's son.
James T. Kirk: [Turns toward the bar] Can I get another one?
Christopher Pike: For my dissertation, I was assigned the USS Kelvin. Something I admired about your Dad. He didn't believe in no-win scenarios
James T. Kirk: Sure learned his lesson!
Christopher Pike: Well, it depends on how you define winning. You're here aren't you?
James T. Kirk: [as beer is brought to him] Thanks.
Christopher Pike: You know that instinct to leap without looking, that was his nature too. And in my opinion it's something Star Fleet's lost.
James T. Kirk: [laughing] Why are you talkin' to me, man?
Christopher Pike: 'Cause I looked up your file while you were drooling on the floor. Your aptitude tests are off the charts, so what is it? You like being the only genius level repeat offender in the Midwest?
James T. Kirk: Maybe I love it.
Christopher Pike: Look, so your Dad died. You can settle for a less than ordinary life. Or do you feel like you were meant for something better? Something special? Enlist in Star Fleet.
Basically, Jim was recruited on the premise that he, like his father before him, did not accept a no-win scenario, and liked to leap without looking. Psychologically, someone who was raised under the stigma of a father who died so that you may live, a father who was considered a hero of the ages, and then the man you look up to, the one that recruited you into Starfleet, not only compares the two of you, but dares you to do better, which would make you more determined not to accept a no-win scenario... Yeah, I can see why Jim might be motivated to cheat. He underwent a lot of growth in that movie, from joining Starfleet for the sake of getting people to see him, Jim Kirk, and not the shadow of his father, to, at the end, believing in the mission for his own sake and finding his purpose.
Though, even as a Kirk-lover, I can agree that what he did to Gaila was a mean-ass thing to do. Not his finest hour, I agree.
Reply
Quotes from "The Wrath of Khan" (god I love this movie):
Spock: The Kobayashi Maru scenario frequently wreaks havoc on students and equipment. As I recall you took the test three times yourself. Your final solution was, shall we say, unique?
Kirk: It had the virtue of never having been tried.
And later...
Saavik: Admiral, may I ask you a question?
Kirk: What's on your mind, Lieutenant?
Saavik: The Kobayashi Maru, sir.
Kirk: Are you asking me if we're playing out that scenario now?
Saavik: On the test, sir... will you tell me what you did? I would really like to know.
McCoy: Lieutenant, you are looking at the only Starfleet cadet who ever beat the no-win scenario.
Saavik: How?
Kirk: I reprogrammed the simulation so it was possible to rescue the ship.
Saavik: What?
David Marcus: He cheated.
Kirk: I changed the conditions of the test; got a commendation for original thinking. I don't like to lose.
Saavik: Then you never faced that situation... faced death.
Kirk: I don't believe in the no-win scenario.
In his case I would say a thirst to prove himself, which, essentially, yes, can apply to both Kirks.
Reply
The thing is, it's a matter of philosiphy from a certain point. What is more difficult: to try and find the solution under impossible conditions or to say that conditions are wrong and change them? Because this is the difference between a test room and the real world. Which sort of makes one wonder -- which position is more defeat -ish?
Reply
...Getting a TOS fic idea. Damnit, I'm supposed to be packing. ;-)
Which sort of makes one wonder -- which position is more defeat -ish?
Good point, I never thought of it that way. I would say, knee-jerk reaction, both. As Jim learned, perhaps for the first time, at the end of tWoK... sometimes winning (Spock saving hundreds of lives with his actions) is also losing and/or paying a price that too dear to ones heart (Jim being forced to confront a world without Spock at his side). You can shape the test, but you can't shape the fallout.
Reply
Sorry? :D
Yeah. Which is why, I'll just say it again, it makes every sense in TOS, and in nuverse not so much. >.<
Reply
Harve Bennett was an amazing writer. I would hazard to say unsurpassed. If I were Abrams, Orci, and Kurtzman and assuming Bennett is still alive, I would definitely be consulting his ass. For serious. ST:tWoK is gripping, moving storytelling to this day, almost thirty years after its release (and so is the other ST film Bennett penned, VH). That's saying something.
I'm not dissing Reboot, because I love it. I really do. I thought Orci and Kurtzman did a great job on capturing Star Trek's wittier side. And the character insights were captivating. But little inconsistencies, like the one you're talking about here (and a few others I wont bring up at the risk of starting a wank fest) could be ironed out in the next film to bring more of a balance.
Reply
Well, amen to that. Personally, I'm not so optimistic about it, in fact, I'm sort of dreading what they might come up with next, but for a while there's still hope, right? ;)
Reply
Those are interesting thoughts, bb. I must admit that the whole KM thing never made much sense to me in nuverse. The idea of the test, for starters, is stupid, because if everyone knows about the test, if it's common knowledge that 'No one passes Kobayashi Maru,' then TBH, I don't understand why any of the cadets would take it seriously. Starfleet needed a test of character -- and that is what they came up with? The same ship that you're unable to save? WTH?
Spock programming it makes no sense at all. Except for -- smartass answer -- to show that he and Kirk hated each other on site. Which, seriously? There was no better way?
In fact, that wholse scene is directed in such a way that, depending on your sympathies, you are forced to think that either one of them is a jerk. Both their arguments make very little sense. So far, the only piece of fiction that sticks with me that made it all work for both of them was by seperis, and she had to invent a subplot to explain it.
I'm sort of pissed, because Orci and Kurtzman didn't drink their coffee that day or something, and now we're stuck with a lacune in common sense the size of a small black hole. And I'm, like, inordinately attached to common sense. ;)
So yeah, it's something to think about, though it's making my teeth ache. >.<
Reply
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