See, your comment about the avergae, everyday Japanese being totally culturally superstitious like that is exactly what I mean. Ringu capitulated on their fears so perfectly, but it wasn't something that would have been so deeply terrifying for Americans because we don't a.) understand their culture or b.) approach horror like that, as a cultural entity.
In a way, I think America, while not religious, has its own brand of superstition the same way the Japanese do. But instead of demons and magic, it's just ghosts that overstay their time. We do have a kind of predisposition to believe in the supernatural, just not as fantastically as other cultures (probably because of our establishment as a culture in Protestantism and in the age of Enlightenment scholars, and not the Stone Age. :D)
Unfortunately, whoever tried to translate Ringu into the Ring seemed to go with more recent American horror trends, with the explanation of everything and the BIG SCARY THINGS. As Sam below points out, there's lots of different brands of American creepiness, but I'd also think there's some tropes that would be able to appeal to us as a broad culture, as well.
Like for example, Samara's mind powers aren't all that scary for us. It was probably one of the worst points in the movie. If they just kept her as a vengeful ghost or something, she would have have us by the balls. We have a thing for mass hysteria induced by removal of modern conveniences. This probably has something to do with a lot of things, but one of the best examples is Stephen King's "Storm of the Century", and that Twilight Episode "The Monsters are Due on Maple Street".
We've got a problem with isolation- probably because of how damn big we are, and how small we feel because we didn't have anything to bolster us. Just a God who pretty much didn't care when and if you died, so you were pretty bitter about death, probably prompting all the hauntings. (I kid. Mosty.) I am being flippant, but I'm contrasting this to other cultures that are similarly isolated, but deal with it better. For example, the Mongolian tribe that lives near the Russian steppes- vast, endless isolation, but they're much happier about it, probably because they had a lot longer to come to terms with it, and their religion deals with inclusion into the natural world around them.
If I come across as talking out of my ass, I really apologize. D: I can't really cite some of this stuff, like the Mongolian thing, but I'm trying. DD:
well, hell, I too was talking out of my ass, and you do it more convincingly. :D
one thing I've noticed is that Americans definitely have more of a thing about restless spirits who were never properly buried or whose graves have been disturbed. see "Poltergeist," again, with its "You left the bodies and you only moved the headstones!" Indian burial grounds, hidden murder victims, and so on-- even some of our sillier figures of horror, like Freddy and Jason, had origin stories along these lines. whereas Japan is a country where, when you die, they give a tiny portion of your ashes to your family and dump the rest in a cremains landfill to be mixed with those of a thousand other people. if your family neglects your grave, you may get pissed off and rise up, but it's rare. victims of murder and suicide are already almost guaranteed to come back as ghosts, seeking revenge-- it really doesn't matter if they were properly buried or not.
American "The Ring" worked somewhat because whatsername was murdered and dumped in the well; ultimately, it didn't even matter by whom (or whether it made sense for that person to have done it ._. ). "Ringu" worked for the Japanese because she was devoted to her mother and murdered by her father (filial piety turned on its head!), but even that wouldn't have been enough for the original novel-- she had to be a witch, a hermaphrodite, AND murdered by her rapist, to justify her horrible revenge. and the hilarious thing about was, the actual person who killed her walked away scot-free.
which brings up another point-- American ghosts tend to want revenge on the people who killed them, the people who disturbed their graves, or the descendants of same. Japanese ghosts will fuck with anybody in range. I find the latter somewhat more disturbing.
one thing I've noticed is that Americans definitely have more of a thing about restless spirits who were never properly buried or whose graves have been disturbed.
Have you ever watched High Plains Drifter? Amazing movie, and it encapsulates this idea in a nutshell. I think the way they treat the entire movie- people's reactions to the Stranger as a familiar but alien figure, they types of vengence wreaked, the Bible quotation in the back of the church, is so frigging American. Watch it, if you haven't- even if you're not the type for Westerns, this is more a smart horror film than a Western.
Also, I understand why Japan would have cremains landfills given their space issue, but ew all the same. DD: And I love how the Japanese had to give, like, a billion reasons to justify revenge. It shows how much different they are than Americans.
the people who disturbed their graves
*shudder* Have you ever watched Gravedancers? This is probably one of the most nonsensical movies about this idea, but it's incredibly fucking terrifying. SO. TERRIFYING. I'm never watching it again, and I ended up burying the disc somewhere so I wouldn't see it. Ugh. Anyway, they tend to follow the more recent American trend of "I'M GONNE GETCHOOO" I know you're a horror buff, so if you're interested, I could even send it to you to get it out of my house. :/
Also, and this is really interesting about revenge and descendants- have you ever watched the movie Reincarnation? It's a Japanese film, really beautiful, about the idea of vengeful ghosts being reincarnated. I can't really give much more than that away, because it would ruin it, but I really recommend it. It's a little atypical for Japanese horror, but it's handled in a very Eastern way.
I, too, find indiscriminate ghosts pretty damn terrifying. Think Silent Hill 4. UGH.
ALSO- another good example of weird ass American ghost stuff and whatnot- Blair Witch 2: Coffin Rock. The movies sucked ass, but I think the games were decent, particularly the second one. It deals with a Civil War soldier who wakes up in the Burkitsville woods about 30 years after the war was fought, by a little girl named Robin Weaver. And by wake up, I mean more like come back to consciousness- his design is brilliant, he's got this awful wound on the side of his head, and leaves sticking to it.
Again, it's hard to summarize, because it plays off your emotions and gut reactions to get a response, but not in the "UGGEDY BUGGEDY" way. And it's pretty much left up to you how he got himself where he did, and what happened to him afterward. Actually- would you be interested in playing it? Trust me, my summary does it no justice. It's got that isolated, surreal Silent Hill feeling, I think you'd like it.
never seen or played any of the above, but very much interested. I might be able to torrent Gravedancers, which is how I get most movies here, but if I can't, maybe we can find out how much it would be for you to ship it to me.
I used to be fascinated with Blair Witch Project and the whole universe that was being created around it. (the fascination never really went away, it's just that the secondary products stopped being available in my area, so I tabled that particular fandom...) don't know if I ever told you, but I went to the Blair Witch 2 promotional campout in the Maryland woods, where they actually had a tent up for people to try out all the games. I had a friend whose band was on the soundtrack, and played a concert in the woods. anyway, the games looked really cool, but I didn't have a PC powerful enough to play them at that time, and then it seemed like they dropped off the face of the earth. I LOVED some of the comic books that came out, like the one about Rustin Parr. I was so bummed when the actual BW2 movie sucked so badly.
on a tangential note, did you ever see The Last Broadcast? one of my favorite movies-- right up there with Ringu. and, to return to topic somewhat, very American in style, though at the moment I'm hard put to say why I feel that.
I disclaim any trauma suffered from Gravedancers. D: The ghosts' appearances alone were enough to make me forcefully forget the name of the movie when I was trying to type the comment above.
I definitely recommend all 3 Blair Witch games- each of the games corresponds with a certain brand of American creepiness related to the time period. The first is set in the 1940's, and has this 'American progression being swallowed by isolation and paranoia'. That kind of fear and uneasiness that goes with having good technology and fast cars, but you still feel helpless against whatever's in the woods. (Plus, it builds on a prequel game, called Nocturne, which I HIGHLY recommend)
The second is more centered around the thick of when Americans lived in their superstitions, when those old ghost stories were being told. But it's got less of the spectator feel of the first one, and more surreality, because it feels more like you're living it. It still feels isolated, but now the woods are watchful. It's intelligent, and it lets the player figure out the meaning of the story on their own, as well as a few other things.
I really wanted to see some of those comics, but could never hunt them down. :/
No, I've never seen Last Broadcast, but I'll definitely look around for it. The ending kind of reminds me of that movie with Robert DeNiro and Dakota Fanning in it, where he ended up being the bad guy.
In a way, I think America, while not religious, has its own brand of superstition the same way the Japanese do. But instead of demons and magic, it's just ghosts that overstay their time. We do have a kind of predisposition to believe in the supernatural, just not as fantastically as other cultures (probably because of our establishment as a culture in Protestantism and in the age of Enlightenment scholars, and not the Stone Age. :D)
Unfortunately, whoever tried to translate Ringu into the Ring seemed to go with more recent American horror trends, with the explanation of everything and the BIG SCARY THINGS. As Sam below points out, there's lots of different brands of American creepiness, but I'd also think there's some tropes that would be able to appeal to us as a broad culture, as well.
Like for example, Samara's mind powers aren't all that scary for us. It was probably one of the worst points in the movie. If they just kept her as a vengeful ghost or something, she would have have us by the balls. We have a thing for mass hysteria induced by removal of modern conveniences. This probably has something to do with a lot of things, but one of the best examples is Stephen King's "Storm of the Century", and that Twilight Episode "The Monsters are Due on Maple Street".
We've got a problem with isolation- probably because of how damn big we are, and how small we feel because we didn't have anything to bolster us. Just a God who pretty much didn't care when and if you died, so you were pretty bitter about death, probably prompting all the hauntings. (I kid. Mosty.) I am being flippant, but I'm contrasting this to other cultures that are similarly isolated, but deal with it better. For example, the Mongolian tribe that lives near the Russian steppes- vast, endless isolation, but they're much happier about it, probably because they had a lot longer to come to terms with it, and their religion deals with inclusion into the natural world around them.
If I come across as talking out of my ass, I really apologize. D: I can't really cite some of this stuff, like the Mongolian thing, but I'm trying. DD:
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one thing I've noticed is that Americans definitely have more of a thing about restless spirits who were never properly buried or whose graves have been disturbed. see "Poltergeist," again, with its "You left the bodies and you only moved the headstones!" Indian burial grounds, hidden murder victims, and so on-- even some of our sillier figures of horror, like Freddy and Jason, had origin stories along these lines. whereas Japan is a country where, when you die, they give a tiny portion of your ashes to your family and dump the rest in a cremains landfill to be mixed with those of a thousand other people. if your family neglects your grave, you may get pissed off and rise up, but it's rare. victims of murder and suicide are already almost guaranteed to come back as ghosts, seeking revenge-- it really doesn't matter if they were properly buried or not.
American "The Ring" worked somewhat because whatsername was murdered and dumped in the well; ultimately, it didn't even matter by whom (or whether it made sense for that person to have done it ._. ). "Ringu" worked for the Japanese because she was devoted to her mother and murdered by her father (filial piety turned on its head!), but even that wouldn't have been enough for the original novel-- she had to be a witch, a hermaphrodite, AND murdered by her rapist, to justify her horrible revenge. and the hilarious thing about was, the actual person who killed her walked away scot-free.
which brings up another point-- American ghosts tend to want revenge on the people who killed them, the people who disturbed their graves, or the descendants of same. Japanese ghosts will fuck with anybody in range. I find the latter somewhat more disturbing.
Reply
Have you ever watched High Plains Drifter? Amazing movie, and it encapsulates this idea in a nutshell. I think the way they treat the entire movie- people's reactions to the Stranger as a familiar but alien figure, they types of vengence wreaked, the Bible quotation in the back of the church, is so frigging American. Watch it, if you haven't- even if you're not the type for Westerns, this is more a smart horror film than a Western.
Also, I understand why Japan would have cremains landfills given their space issue, but ew all the same. DD: And I love how the Japanese had to give, like, a billion reasons to justify revenge. It shows how much different they are than Americans.
the people who disturbed their graves
*shudder* Have you ever watched Gravedancers? This is probably one of the most nonsensical movies about this idea, but it's incredibly fucking terrifying. SO. TERRIFYING. I'm never watching it again, and I ended up burying the disc somewhere so I wouldn't see it. Ugh. Anyway, they tend to follow the more recent American trend of "I'M GONNE GETCHOOO" I know you're a horror buff, so if you're interested, I could even send it to you to get it out of my house. :/
Also, and this is really interesting about revenge and descendants- have you ever watched the movie Reincarnation? It's a Japanese film, really beautiful, about the idea of vengeful ghosts being reincarnated. I can't really give much more than that away, because it would ruin it, but I really recommend it. It's a little atypical for Japanese horror, but it's handled in a very Eastern way.
I, too, find indiscriminate ghosts pretty damn terrifying. Think Silent Hill 4. UGH.
ALSO- another good example of weird ass American ghost stuff and whatnot- Blair Witch 2: Coffin Rock. The movies sucked ass, but I think the games were decent, particularly the second one. It deals with a Civil War soldier who wakes up in the Burkitsville woods about 30 years after the war was fought, by a little girl named Robin Weaver. And by wake up, I mean more like come back to consciousness- his design is brilliant, he's got this awful wound on the side of his head, and leaves sticking to it.
Again, it's hard to summarize, because it plays off your emotions and gut reactions to get a response, but not in the "UGGEDY BUGGEDY" way. And it's pretty much left up to you how he got himself where he did, and what happened to him afterward. Actually- would you be interested in playing it? Trust me, my summary does it no justice. It's got that isolated, surreal Silent Hill feeling, I think you'd like it.
Reply
I used to be fascinated with Blair Witch Project and the whole universe that was being created around it. (the fascination never really went away, it's just that the secondary products stopped being available in my area, so I tabled that particular fandom...) don't know if I ever told you, but I went to the Blair Witch 2 promotional campout in the Maryland woods, where they actually had a tent up for people to try out all the games. I had a friend whose band was on the soundtrack, and played a concert in the woods. anyway, the games looked really cool, but I didn't have a PC powerful enough to play them at that time, and then it seemed like they dropped off the face of the earth. I LOVED some of the comic books that came out, like the one about Rustin Parr. I was so bummed when the actual BW2 movie sucked so badly.
on a tangential note, did you ever see The Last Broadcast? one of my favorite movies-- right up there with Ringu. and, to return to topic somewhat, very American in style, though at the moment I'm hard put to say why I feel that.
Reply
I definitely recommend all 3 Blair Witch games- each of the games corresponds with a certain brand of American creepiness related to the time period. The first is set in the 1940's, and has this 'American progression being swallowed by isolation and paranoia'. That kind of fear and uneasiness that goes with having good technology and fast cars, but you still feel helpless against whatever's in the woods. (Plus, it builds on a prequel game, called Nocturne, which I HIGHLY recommend)
Blair Witch I via chaining Rapidshare downloads: http://www.downtr.net/32614-blair-witch-volume-i-rustin-parr-iso.html
The second is more centered around the thick of when Americans lived in their superstitions, when those old ghost stories were being told. But it's got less of the spectator feel of the first one, and more surreality, because it feels more like you're living it. It still feels isolated, but now the woods are watchful. It's intelligent, and it lets the player figure out the meaning of the story on their own, as well as a few other things.
Here's the link to download it via Rapidshare: http://www.downtr.net/32616-blair-witch-volume-ii-the-legend-of-coffin-rock.html
The third has that 1700's feel of the Salem Witch trials account of witchcraft. It's got a bleaker, more helpless fear than the others. And the zombies are terrifying. Link: http://www.downtr.net/32617-blair-witch-volume-iii-the-elly-kedward-tale-iso.html
I really wanted to see some of those comics, but could never hunt them down. :/
No, I've never seen Last Broadcast, but I'll definitely look around for it. The ending kind of reminds me of that movie with Robert DeNiro and Dakota Fanning in it, where he ended up being the bad guy.
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