First post?

[kaos_sparrow]

Okay, so I know this has probably been done lots of times before, but I need to get it off my chest.

Comments

[higenshi]

I agree on the Kairi characterization. She's the most often screwed up, and I often see her played as the whiny damsel in distress.

She never asked to be saved. In fact, she seemed determined to save herself.

I can also argue she's braver than her two friends.

(In KH1... She pretty much yells how she won't let Sora go, then turns around and, despite the odds, looks ready to fight ANSEM. Then she's prepared to get RIPPED TO SHREDS to protect Sora's Heartless with her own body--not even seeming afraid. In 2, she runs into the dark, swirly portal with no fear--obviously not liking being manipulated. She decides to try and fight SAIX with her FISTS, no hesitation. She jumps from a balcony down to a lower area, again no hesitation. She is all ready to go fight along her friends against XEMNAS, despite her lack of experience. ...She's pretty damn fearless, when you look at her.)

I hate to see her characterized to the point that she's not Kairi. :/ Yeah, a few things can change--she can have her immature moments and such. But from canon actions, she's a brave, stubborn individual.

Also, on Sora... ...I personally believe he didn't connect his actions toward Org XIII as killing them. I believe it will one day hit him that he did, and he's going to fall and fall hard.

"A hero is someone who's willing to sacrifice everything. A villain is someone who has nothing left to lose."

[matthias_wave]

Oh, yes. It's not hard to imagine that once he gets the chance to think about it, he's going to have serious trouble with the idea that maybe, just maybe, what he's been told* is wrong or at least the wrong way of looking at things and the empty vessels he's had to destroy, even to protect his friends, were people. Offhand, the only others who have actually died as a direct result of his actions have been Clayton, Oogie Boogie, Shan Yu, and Malificent - and out of those, two were Heartless or very nearly so when he killed them and the other two came back (Plz correct me if I'm wrong - did they ever actually kill Ursula?).

*by sources who were seriously biased, at least halfway insane, or got their information from said biased/crazy sources (I'm thinking Yen Sid, Xemnas, and Mickey and the Organization respectively) - sorry, my pet theories seem to be getting drawn into this

[higenshi]

Ursula seemed to have managed to kill herself.

But exactly! One day, it will hit him that he was lead on, that these were people trying to survive the only way they knew how, and that he killed them.

And Mickey told Yen Sid. And Mickey was likely told by DiZ, who, let's face it, is the most biased of all against Nobodies. I'd go so far as to call him racist against Nobodies.

I'm kinda hoping for this to be confronted in-game someday. Admit it: he'll fall, and fall hard when it happens, since he's always held that he wasn't hurting anyone on purpose (Maleficent was done for when Ansem the Fake turned on her, Clayton would have been fine had he not been crushed by the giant Heartless, Oogie Boogie actually fell through the cracks, and Shan Yu seemed to just succumb to his own darkness). He's always fought for what's right, and, had he realized sooner these were people who just want to have their hearts back, he might have gone, "Hey, maybe there's, you know, another way and we can all work together on this?"

But no. He takes what he's spoon-fed at face value and doesn't question it. So he's going to have to face it one day, and he's not going to like the person he's become.

[matthias_wave]

Well, he is effectively all of fourteen, but yes. He is not going to like it when he discovers that the people telling him these things weren't all that reliable - and that it's led to him destroying people whose only crime was someone else entirely giving in to the darkness (I tend to picture a lot of Nobodies as being different people than their originals, if only because Roxas and Namine certainly were).

Of course, part of the problem is that while I can see quite a few of the remaining Organization members actually listening (especially Luxord), Xemnas was still power-mad and Saïx was still going to follow Xemnas as far as he could. My pet AU is essentially that one day somebody realizes that the Organization isn't really about getting them hearts anymore, if it ever was, but about Xemnas getting power. I'm personally fond of it being Demyx, but that's just me being a Demyx fanboy - probably it'd be Luxord or Axel.

Actually, I was pretty sure Clayton was more or less officially a Heartless by the time we fought him... Tarzan seemed pretty certain it wasn't Clayton anymore.

[higenshi]

Yes! Exactly! Wow, it's like we have some sort of telepathic mindlink.

As for the Org... ...Well, most of them would probably then side with Sora over Saix and Xemnas. (Granted, there are spoilers about Saix I could mention...) After all, Sora's proven to be reliable, and actually follow through on his promises. Xemnas? ...Not so much.

On the point of Clayton, I think that was more Tarzan's perception of Clayton not being Clayton's true nature. Like in the movie, Clayton really manipulated Tarzan, and Tarzan himself is fairly naive. So, Clayton's true nature being revealed...? ...In Tarzan's mind, it can be argued, that means this is "not Clayton." (And even then, perhaps he was talking about the fact that there happened to be more than just Clayton there, and the giant Heartless was the more dangerous thing.)

[matthias_wave]

Lessee... Luxord would probably go with whoever has the better deal vis-a-vis Luxord's own goals, ditto for Axel plus consideration for his Roxas-shaped soft spot, possibly Xaldin and Xigbar as well, and Demyx'd go for whatever makes the least work for him. (I am aware of the broad shape of the Saix-based spoilers, am playing through 358/2 Days now, and given how far counter it seems to run to his established characterization am rather interested to see how they plan to pull that one off.)

Hmm... fair point. I guess repeating the "heart" word could have meant either the heart wasn't Clayton's or there was something heartish that they should be paying attention to (like the giant invisible lizard Heartless). *goes to find cutscene at end of bossfight to see if there's any glimmer of humanity left in Clayton there*

[higenshi]

Xaldin's arguable. He seems loyal. Xigbar? Not so much. He's a sneaky bastard. Maybe Xaldin would follow him. Dem... Yeah, of course.

It actually fits quite well with what's established for him, as it changes how you look at him in KH2 and you can then see where he's a deceptive little thing.

Yeah, we can't tell what Tarzan meant, seeing as he doesn't get his thoughts across to other humans quite well.

[matthias_wave]

Good point - though Xaldin's very good at getting what he wants in any case.

Fair point...

True. Looking at the video, it looks like Clayton may not have been a Heartless - I doubt one of them would be screaming like that, even if the Stealth Sneak was falling over onto them.

[higenshi]

Yes, Xaldin's very good at that. It seems all the Apprentices are manipulative and good at pulling strings.

*Nod.* Exactly, and Tarzan is, if anything, perceptive of his surroundings. He could sense the danger in the air, and no, it wasn't the guy with the gun--since Sora's proven he can fight and win against varying things.

[matthias_wave]

Except maybe Lexaeus, but he hasn't had a chance to show it off much. Then again, most of the Organization seems to be - even Larxene, who's about as subtle as a lightning bolt. Must be something about not having a conscience anymore. Demyx seems to be the only one who's actually shown to be bad at manipulating - at least the attempts he make onscreen never seem to work, though he doesn't try very hard.

Nope, it was the giant invisible lizard on the other side of the cliff. Come to think of it, for something that could bust through a foot-thick rock wall, the Stealth Sneak was kind of a pushover. I mean, yeah, early game boss, but still...

[higenshi]

Granted, Sora is fighting for his life.

Demyx can be good at manipulation--if he tries. He's also potentially the strongest of the Org members, with his control over water. Human body is 75%+ water. He can either drown you in your own fluids, or rip the water from your body. Admit it--it's good he's as lazy as he is.

[matthias_wave]

And I can see him bringing this up, at least in an attempt to justify what he's had to do to himself - and even more than that, not just protecting himself, but his friends and the entire universe as well. I can also very easily see this justification not helping at all.

Fair point, though I guess that depends on how broad you want to make his power base. But yes, that whole "his element does the dirty work for him" thing does require a lot of control, and raw power - he can fill a battlefield with water forms, and keep them fighting. Theoretically he could even physically control people - as original as A:tLA was, I'm sure the idea of a hydrokinetic controlling people by manipulating their blood wasn't there first, and they do make the point there that bloodbending can kill as easily as control.

[higenshi]

Yeah. It'd go sorta like this: "B-But I was fighting for my life, and my friends...! ... *Groan.* Who'm I kidding? I'm just as bad as they were..."

Yeah, though Dem probably doesn't like killing too much. He seems a tad squeamish, to me.

[matthias_wave]

Fair point. Besides, killing people leaves an awful lot of unwanted mess - including their friends wanting revenge. It's really not worth it unless you kill everyone, and that's even more work.

Also, it's hard to get a heart out of someone when they're dead.

[higenshi]

Exactly!

[onlyinthislight]

Actually, I don't get this whole nice-guy Demyx thing. So far, in days, he's kind of a dick. Well, that's the wrong way to put it, but he certainly isn't nice.