Age meaning order in which they became Nobodies, as has been said. The original six were, as said, the original six, then Saix joined, then Axel, etc. Roxas is number Thirteen since he's only been around for a short while. Not physical age - sorry, should've made that clearer.
Agree with you on some Organization members taking it that way. Plus... my pet theory is that the early days of the Org were highly unpleasant, when they were still confused as to wtf was going on, what had happened to them, what they were, etc. Which is why the original six + Saix are so close-knit and loyal, since they went through shit together. However, things changed, they built up the Org and so when it comes to the newbies... on the elders' side, there's the resentment that they've basically had everything the originals really strove for and built from scratch handed to them on a silver platter and don't even appreciate what they have. On the neophytes', it's that the elders look down on them just because they're new, etc. etc. And I AM GOING OFF ON A TANGENT HERE sorry. :)
*has longer comment than you, nyah*
And huzzah, if I can pass around the theory maybe /I/ don't have to be the one to write it XD
TANGENTS ARE FUN AND ARE FREQUENTLY THE SPAWN OF PLOT BUNNIES as evidenced by above. ^_^
Hmm that's a good theory. It makes sense-- not something I'd ever really considered before, but it definitely makes sense. I think a mistake that a lot of fanthings people seem to make with the Organization is that they're all buddy-buddy because they're in the same boat (usually I see this from people who haven't read/played CoM, and it could just be my imagination).
[: I would write it if I had writing skills that I was reasonably confident of. As it is, I don't.
At least it is a fun and multipurpose bunny and actually serves to patch up a plot hole in the fic I'm planning! :)
It occurred to me once and I thought it made a lot of sense regarding character interaction, and especially why Saix seems to belong more to the original six than the neophytes in terms of loyalty, power in the hierarchy and the like. And really, when you think about it the early days of the Org /can't/ have been pleasant.
And ogod, buddybuddy? Someone has really not played or read CoM. Although what I also dislike is the other option - when people go the "the Org all really dislike each other!" route, ignoring canonical relationships (I haven't seen this that often, but it grates.)
"Whoa, shit, we don't have hearts anymore? What the hell, man, this really fuckin' sucks. I guess we better try to figure it out together."
In all honesty, I think it's really difficult to write/play a character from the Organization without having first at least read Chain of Memories. A lot of their dynamic is explained in there... the same girl who spawned this rant once tried to convince me that Larxene would be friends with Zexion. I lol'd.
Exactly! Pretty much all of what we see in the KH series of the Nobodies had to be built up pretty much from scratch, after all. And that can't have been easy.
Friends with... I can see Larxene and Zexion interacting non-antagonistically but it would be seriously creepy and nothing near so nice as "friends". (I think I had a bunny once where they were on a mission together and basically competing in how quickly/well they could break people, Larxene from the physical side, Zexion on the mental.) I shy away from calling Nobody interactions friendships anyway due to the no-heart thing. Larxene and Zexion? It is to laugh.
I would have to agree. That competition idea is interesting, especially because neither of them would want to admit it xDD. I think Axel and Roxas' relationship is bordering on friendship, but that's probably mostly Roxas' fault as he does still have a beating heart... Though something I've been exploring of late is the soul's connection to the metaphysical function of the heart (also known as Emily's Theory on Why Nobodies Can Still Feel Even Though They Don't Have Hearts). It's slow going. xDD
I knooow. All that time building everything up and all. ;_;
The competition, I think, would be hilarious if it weren't so damned creepy. And you're right, neither would want to admit the loss. XD
Agreed on Axel and Roxas, and there are other Nobody relationships I personally think of as pretty close to friendship (all of the inter-II-VI ones, for one) but I tend to think that there's still a lack of warm fuzzy feelings there. Then again, I genuinely like the Org-have-little-to-no-emotions and enjoy playing around with the idea, and especially with how you /can/ still have them feel things rather like grief in a roundabout way (I had a fic in the works for a while about Xigbar after CoM. ...I abandon a lot of my fics, kay.) Although your theory sounds interesting! *g*
Theories re: Kingdom Hearts are so much fun, even if a lot of the Organization-based theories are going to be made null once 358/2 Days comes out...
My friend Sarah came up to me once and was like "You know, the Organization wasn't really doing anything... I mean, it was kind of not okay for them to be turning people into Nobodies, but they were really just looking for their hearts. I wonder what Sora would do if he found out that he basically killed a bunch of innocent people?" That one spawned plot bunnies that are still in the works to this day. -__-
I'm terrified most of my pet theories will be made null and void once 358/2 comes out - I'm really attached to some of 'em! ;_; Ah well, shall see how it goes...
And I've always thought of CoM and KH2 as kind of a tragedy. The Nobodies were doing bad things but in a way they really could not possibly do anything differently, because it was impossible for them not to try to get hearts of their own. If getting hearts of their own necessitated committing genocide, then hallo genocide - it wasn't as if they were capable of remorse or anything like that, after all, and the current situation was so completely untenable that /not/ trying simply wasn't an option.
I find the whole thing tragic because of the inevitability of it all, and it always saddened me that Sora didn't seem to see that, didn't see that rather than doing bad things for a lark the Org genuinely did not have a choice. *sighs* It's an unpopular view in fandom, though, I've found; people tend to expect you to either go "the Org was EVIL and Sora was COMPLETELY RIGHT for killing them!" or "the Org was woobie and misunderstoooood and Sora was evil!" I like my shades of grey!
I for one am seriously willing to rework all my extensive theories if it means more Lexaeus. *hugs him* Also Xigbar, but Xigbar gets everywhere, so he barely counts.
To be fair to Sora, the Organization did a lot of flat-out bad stuff, and if they wouldn't stop turning people into Heartless it was necessary to stop them. (And, dearly as I love them, the ones Sora killed at Castle Oblivion kind of deserved it for messing with his head. They brought it on themselves in more ways than one.) On the other hand, Riku did something similar and Sora forgave him.
Personally, I've always thought that, okay, they did nasty stuff and Sora was in the right there - but (especially for the non-CoM crew) it seemed like Sora was killing them for the wrong reasons and wasn't actually thinking about what he'd been told. That really grated.
Yes! Sora was doing the right thing, but for the wrong reasons and without thinking it through--and not thinking things through can be an amusing character trait, but not when what you're bouncing right over is killing other sentient beings. To be fair, because I like Sora, he was led into the Nobody thing in very black-and-white terms and warned by Yen Sid not to let them "fool" him (i.e. talk to him, basically), because they weren't really people. So he's mostly just guilty of believing what a respected authority told him, which...he's sixteen. It happens. In many ways, it's Yen Sid's conduct that really annoys me, because he encouraged Sora to think that way about the Nobodies.
There's an interesting contrast here, Sora in KHII (right things, wrong reasons) vs. Riku in KHI (wrong things, right reasons).
I was going to reply to this thread before I saw that it'd continued. Whoops.
Things like this are the reason why I wish that Roxas and Sora could actually interact besides their DIve Into the Heart battle. Because since Namine told Roxas that the Organization was a 'group of people who are looking to be whole' or whatever her phrasing was, I feel like if Sora knew that it would have changed his approach to the whole thing (maybe).
Agree with you on some Organization members taking it that way. Plus... my pet theory is that the early days of the Org were highly unpleasant, when they were still confused as to wtf was going on, what had happened to them, what they were, etc. Which is why the original six + Saix are so close-knit and loyal, since they went through shit together. However, things changed, they built up the Org and so when it comes to the newbies... on the elders' side, there's the resentment that they've basically had everything the originals really strove for and built from scratch handed to them on a silver platter and don't even appreciate what they have. On the neophytes', it's that the elders look down on them just because they're new, etc. etc. And I AM GOING OFF ON A TANGENT HERE sorry. :)
*has longer comment than you, nyah*
And huzzah, if I can pass around the theory maybe /I/ don't have to be the one to write it XD
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Hmm that's a good theory. It makes sense-- not something I'd ever really considered before, but it definitely makes sense. I think a mistake that a lot of fanthings people seem to make with the Organization is that they're all buddy-buddy because they're in the same boat (usually I see this from people who haven't read/played CoM, and it could just be my imagination).
[: I would write it if I had writing skills that I was reasonably confident of. As it is, I don't.
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It occurred to me once and I thought it made a lot of sense regarding character interaction, and especially why Saix seems to belong more to the original six than the neophytes in terms of loyalty, power in the hierarchy and the like. And really, when you think about it the early days of the Org /can't/ have been pleasant.
And ogod, buddybuddy? Someone has really not played or read CoM. Although what I also dislike is the other option - when people go the "the Org all really dislike each other!" route, ignoring canonical relationships (I haven't seen this that often, but it grates.)
...bah humbug.
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In all honesty, I think it's really difficult to write/play a character from the Organization without having first at least read Chain of Memories. A lot of their dynamic is explained in there... the same girl who spawned this rant once tried to convince me that Larxene would be friends with Zexion. I lol'd.
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Friends with... I can see Larxene and Zexion interacting non-antagonistically but it would be seriously creepy and nothing near so nice as "friends". (I think I had a bunny once where they were on a mission together and basically competing in how quickly/well they could break people, Larxene from the physical side, Zexion on the mental.) I shy away from calling Nobody interactions friendships anyway due to the no-heart thing. Larxene and Zexion? It is to laugh.
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I would have to agree. That competition idea is interesting, especially because neither of them would want to admit it xDD. I think Axel and Roxas' relationship is bordering on friendship, but that's probably mostly Roxas' fault as he does still have a beating heart... Though something I've been exploring of late is the soul's connection to the metaphysical function of the heart (also known as Emily's Theory on Why Nobodies Can Still Feel Even Though They Don't Have Hearts). It's slow going. xDD
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The competition, I think, would be hilarious if it weren't so damned creepy. And you're right, neither would want to admit the loss. XD
Agreed on Axel and Roxas, and there are other Nobody relationships I personally think of as pretty close to friendship (all of the inter-II-VI ones, for one) but I tend to think that there's still a lack of warm fuzzy feelings there. Then again, I genuinely like the Org-have-little-to-no-emotions and enjoy playing around with the idea, and especially with how you /can/ still have them feel things rather like grief in a roundabout way (I had a fic in the works for a while about Xigbar after CoM. ...I abandon a lot of my fics, kay.) Although your theory sounds interesting! *g*
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My friend Sarah came up to me once and was like "You know, the Organization wasn't really doing anything... I mean, it was kind of not okay for them to be turning people into Nobodies, but they were really just looking for their hearts. I wonder what Sora would do if he found out that he basically killed a bunch of innocent people?" That one spawned plot bunnies that are still in the works to this day. -__-
(I abandon a lot of fics, too. *__*)
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And I've always thought of CoM and KH2 as kind of a tragedy. The Nobodies were doing bad things but in a way they really could not possibly do anything differently, because it was impossible for them not to try to get hearts of their own. If getting hearts of their own necessitated committing genocide, then hallo genocide - it wasn't as if they were capable of remorse or anything like that, after all, and the current situation was so completely untenable that /not/ trying simply wasn't an option.
I find the whole thing tragic because of the inevitability of it all, and it always saddened me that Sora didn't seem to see that, didn't see that rather than doing bad things for a lark the Org genuinely did not have a choice. *sighs* It's an unpopular view in fandom, though, I've found; people tend to expect you to either go "the Org was EVIL and Sora was COMPLETELY RIGHT for killing them!" or "the Org was woobie and misunderstoooood and Sora was evil!" I like my shades of grey!
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I for one am seriously willing to rework all my extensive theories if it means more Lexaeus. *hugs him* Also Xigbar, but Xigbar gets everywhere, so he barely counts.
To be fair to Sora, the Organization did a lot of flat-out bad stuff, and if they wouldn't stop turning people into Heartless it was necessary to stop them. (And, dearly as I love them, the ones Sora killed at Castle Oblivion kind of deserved it for messing with his head. They brought it on themselves in more ways than one.) On the other hand, Riku did something similar and Sora forgave him.
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There's an interesting contrast here, Sora in KHII (right things, wrong reasons) vs. Riku in KHI (wrong things, right reasons).
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Things like this are the reason why I wish that Roxas and Sora could actually interact besides their DIve Into the Heart battle. Because since Namine told Roxas that the Organization was a 'group of people who are looking to be whole' or whatever her phrasing was, I feel like if Sora knew that it would have changed his approach to the whole thing (maybe).
It's a thought hamster (since I hate bunnies).
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