They... listened!
It's a miracle! Over at TV Tropes somebody finally got it!
Tragic The Dragon: I didn't realize the "Kingdom Hearts" example was going to be such a can of worms back when I added it.
Bob: My God! What have I done? I just wanted to include the different viewpoint from the Draco In Leather Pants article and now I've opened a Pandoras Box. I'm... I'm so sorry everyone.
Tragic The Dragon: Naw, man, it's cool. Heck, the fact that the issue has spawned such a debate speaks to the many, many ramifications of this trope.
Yogi: To put this all in perspective, if Orginization XIII were normal flesh and blood humans who destroyed universes to get their way, would it have been morally questionable to kill them? Sora has beaten to death sentient humans before, like Captain Hook, Shan Yu, Maleficent, and Clayton. As such, Sora treats Orginization XIII the same as he treats everyone else. He's willing to make friends with them, but if they try to harm him or his friends they should update their life insurance policy first.
Harpie Siren: What is one of the first things the Org. does after they introduce themselves in Kingdom Hearts 2? They are screwing with the Beast's head! They. Are. Messing. With. A. Friend. Of. Sora's. All bets are off now, because Its Personal. Just like Yogi said... ... Y'know, this whole "Sora 'murdered' the Organazation" mindset the most annoying thing about the Kingdom Hearts fandom... Yes, they're sympathic... but they weren't sitting around having tea and cookies, they were killing people! You saw what Luxord was going to do to Port Royal!
Yogi: Several additional points.
Harpie Siren: Yes. Somebody finally gets it! And about Xemnas, I find it very hard to believe that Xemnas's motivation was getting his heart back, I think that it was part of how he got the neophytes into the Org.
Yogi: To be perfectly fair, Kingdom Hearts does have aspects of this trope. Most Human enemies when defeated manage to escape or otherwise survive (Hook, Riku, the Final Fantasy characters) or are only killed when in their monster form (Maleficent, Jafar), while the non-humans generally die. Then again, Clayton, Shan Yu, and Barbossa are killed while Pete lives to fight another day. I wouldn't say this is trope-worthy.
Harpie Siren: Well, when it comes to the Human enemies they're bound to the Disney movies... their deaths are going to mirror the way they died in their respective films. And we can't kill Pete!
Yes, Harpie Siren is me....
Tragic The Dragon: I didn't realize the "Kingdom Hearts" example was going to be such a can of worms back when I added it.
Bob: My God! What have I done? I just wanted to include the different viewpoint from the Draco In Leather Pants article and now I've opened a Pandoras Box. I'm... I'm so sorry everyone.
Tragic The Dragon: Naw, man, it's cool. Heck, the fact that the issue has spawned such a debate speaks to the many, many ramifications of this trope.
Yogi: To put this all in perspective, if Orginization XIII were normal flesh and blood humans who destroyed universes to get their way, would it have been morally questionable to kill them? Sora has beaten to death sentient humans before, like Captain Hook, Shan Yu, Maleficent, and Clayton. As such, Sora treats Orginization XIII the same as he treats everyone else. He's willing to make friends with them, but if they try to harm him or his friends they should update their life insurance policy first.
Harpie Siren: What is one of the first things the Org. does after they introduce themselves in Kingdom Hearts 2? They are screwing with the Beast's head! They. Are. Messing. With. A. Friend. Of. Sora's. All bets are off now, because Its Personal. Just like Yogi said... ... Y'know, this whole "Sora 'murdered' the Organazation" mindset the most annoying thing about the Kingdom Hearts fandom... Yes, they're sympathic... but they weren't sitting around having tea and cookies, they were killing people! You saw what Luxord was going to do to Port Royal!
Yogi: Several additional points.
- First, Organization XIII aren't just leveling towns, invading countries, herding Jews into death camps, or even blowing up planets. Nope, these people are collapsing Universes Note the 's' in "Universes". This is evil that has we have no real frame of reference about, since no one in real life has actually been this evil before.
- Second, part of being a sentient being is taking responsibilities for your actions. Hence, the "Xemnas manipulated them" excuse doesn't work.
- As an add-on to the previous statement, if Xemnas was really the only evil one manipulating everyone else, then Sora had a responsibility to stop him, even after he found Kairi and Riku, and continue on until Xemnas was destroyed.
- Third, DiZ had already destroyed the false Kingdom Hearts, meaning Organization XIII would have had to start all over. Hence, Organization XII could not be considered harmless.
- Lastly, if they did get their hearts, AND assuming the process of getting their hearts is itself harmless to others, AND assuming that this group of superpowered sociopaths won't actually do anything evil ever again, there's still the matter of Justice.
Harpie Siren: Yes. Somebody finally gets it! And about Xemnas, I find it very hard to believe that Xemnas's motivation was getting his heart back, I think that it was part of how he got the neophytes into the Org.
Yogi: To be perfectly fair, Kingdom Hearts does have aspects of this trope. Most Human enemies when defeated manage to escape or otherwise survive (Hook, Riku, the Final Fantasy characters) or are only killed when in their monster form (Maleficent, Jafar), while the non-humans generally die. Then again, Clayton, Shan Yu, and Barbossa are killed while Pete lives to fight another day. I wouldn't say this is trope-worthy.
Harpie Siren: Well, when it comes to the Human enemies they're bound to the Disney movies... their deaths are going to mirror the way they died in their respective films. And we can't kill Pete!
Yes, Harpie Siren is me....