I didn't even look at all the episodes. Seriously, it's just discouraging that Kripke and the other writers think that this is okay (though it's not like mainstream culture is telling them anything different, unfortunately).
I'm just sick of being on the receiving end of it, you know? I can't think of another fannish show that puts out this kind of thing.
Yeah, this has been disgusting. I'm not as bothered by the typcial horror-genre treatment of the women characters in specific or in general as some people are; but the violent language/attitude on the part of the good guys is to blatant and persistent to shrug off. Maybe you could email this post to Kripke, Singer, and the writers.
I agree about the horror-genre treatment of women--I think it often has useful things to say about gender and the societal fears of women and about women. Some of it is just glorification, sure, but I don't think working within the genre is inherently misogynistic; it depends on what you do with it. What bothers me about the list above is how offhand it is; it doesn't serve a narrative purpose, there's no context to justify it. They're just inserted slurs against women that apparently network TV thinks is okay.
I sent a letter to Kripke's representatives after Malleus Maleficarum on both the misogyny and racism this season, but yeah, I'll definitely write another one, and I hope people are willing to join in the letter campaign esorlehcar's talking about.
What bothers me about the list above is how offhand it is; it doesn't serve a narrative purpose, there's no context to justify it.
Wow, that really made a lightbulb go off over my head. I was going to blather away here but I got longwinded so I put it over in my own place. (If for any reason you prefer not to have this entry linked just say the word.)
Yes, and I'm really freaking tired of being kicked in the face by this show. Before this season, one of the things I loved about Sam and Dean was their *lack* of casual contempt for women. There's no narrative or character reason for it this season, which is why I go back to the demographics issue. I can't see any other source for it.
Yeah, I've been trying to pin down when Dean went from the sweetheart from Wendigo to the asshole in Malleus Maleficarum and I couldn't figure it out. You also had the doublemint twins (has there been more sex overall? I don't think so), which seems to point to demographics.
And still- why aren't women a desirable demographic, again? I don't get that.
And still- why aren't women a desirable demographic, again? I don't get that.
I know, that kills me. Do they think women don't buy things? That we don't have economic power? I'll be honest--my small, cynical self really thinks that Kripke's annoyed that his manly, metal rock, classic car, ghost-hunting show appeals to women. I'm sure the CW execs have a lot to say about that, too.
"I should have seen it before. But you all look alike to me."
He's talking about the faces of demons in this quote. Not women. And some of the other quotes relate to demons as well: "I mean, hey, I barely respect you now." - refers to the demon who is trying to use the host's sexuality as a tool. And let us not forget that when they are talking about how witches are whores, they are talking about selling oneself to the demon in exchange for power, having no respect for the value of their souls. It's not exactly an uncommon expression.
I do realize there's no point in trying to discuss this issue anymore, but I don't think all of this belongs lumped together as evidence of your point.
I don't think there's no point in discussing the issue, I just think we're coming at it from different angles. I lumped them together deliberately--and some of the quotes aren't from Dean or Sam--because I'm focusing on the language used by the writers, not the context or motivations of the characters. The only context that's relevant for me is that these are all slurs against women, and in the example you gave of "you all look alike to me," PoCs. I don't think it's any more justified for Dean to say that to a demon than a PoC; the phrase itself developed in the context of racism
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No, I really can't say that it improves my enjoyment of the show. And there are some things I really don't like - Sam's little tagged on 'bitch' made me roll my eyes pretty hard. But what I can say is that this stuff doesn't get to me the way it gets to some other fans, and it doesn't actively interfere with my enjoyment of the show 90% of the time. I'd far prefer that they write smarter dialog that doesn't make the characters look like one-dimensional assholes, and I do appreciate the contextual argument you're making, although I do still disagree that there isn't a distinction between the context and the motivation, which is the difference between misogynistic intent and demon-and-evil-hating in some cases - Dean's choice of certain default gendered insults included. I also appreciate that there's been a lot of pandering to young male demographics this season - hell, the intro of the new female characters was part of it, ironically. But on the whole, none of this fills me with rage. It just irritates me that the writing and
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although I do still disagree that there isn't a distinction between the context and the motivation, which is the difference between misogynistic intent and demon-and-evil-hating in some casesPeople keep making this argument -- it's just fine for Dean to hurl as many misogynistic insults as he likes and it doesn't count because he only does it to demons in women's bodies, and it really doesn't work. If Dean had screamed "nigger" at the demon in a black man's body at the beginning of TIomS, no one would be arguing that his racism didn't count since he only says nigger when he's talking about demons. By choosing a racial epithet, he'd have been insulting and degrading people of color as a group, not just the demon. And by choosing misogynistic epithets, he's insulting and degrading women as a group. It wouldn't matter if his "intent" wasn't to be racist in screaming nigger -- he'd still be being racist. And it doesn't matter if his intent isn't to be misogynistic when he uses misogynistic insults multiple times per episode -- he's
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I'm just sick of being on the receiving end of it, you know? I can't think of another fannish show that puts out this kind of thing.
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I sent a letter to Kripke's representatives after Malleus Maleficarum on both the misogyny and racism this season, but yeah, I'll definitely write another one, and I hope people are willing to join in the letter campaign esorlehcar's talking about.
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Wow, that really made a lightbulb go off over my head. I was going to blather away here but I got longwinded so I put it over in my own place. (If for any reason you prefer not to have this entry linked just say the word.)
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And still- why aren't women a desirable demographic, again? I don't get that.
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I know, that kills me. Do they think women don't buy things? That we don't have economic power? I'll be honest--my small, cynical self really thinks that Kripke's annoyed that his manly, metal rock, classic car, ghost-hunting show appeals to women. I'm sure the CW execs have a lot to say about that, too.
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He's talking about the faces of demons in this quote. Not women. And some of the other quotes relate to demons as well: "I mean, hey, I barely respect you now." - refers to the demon who is trying to use the host's sexuality as a tool. And let us not forget that when they are talking about how witches are whores, they are talking about selling oneself to the demon in exchange for power, having no respect for the value of their souls. It's not exactly an uncommon expression.
I do realize there's no point in trying to discuss this issue anymore, but I don't think all of this belongs lumped together as evidence of your point.
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