but I think we're approaching it from different sides - you're looking for the show to have solid mythology or a statement of purpose, I'm looking at it from a character POV.
I'm not necessarily *looking* for that - I acknowledge that it's no worse from a mythological perspective than most of the other eps. The difference is that I usually don't give a crap.
I mean, I was raised very, very religious. I needed repeated pep talks from my best friend as a kid before I dared to use curse words without fear of smiting. I can't treat this like just another story. My issues, not the show's. :-)
Sam may have been arguing for smiting because he would like there to be higher powers of good, but I don't think the episode supported his view.
I think it kind of did, in that the question became "is this an angel?" rather than "is this a good thing?" But then, I'm of the opinion that it's a human's moral obligation to fight even angels if the angels are doing evil.
Also, we were dealing with one priest's idea of angels - he obviously thought of the power and smiting kind, not the cuddly big-eyed child in a nightie kind.
As I said, I'm fine with angels being scary. The trouble is that when the appearance of the angel is followed by the same kind of horror tropes we get from ghosts in all other eps, I need more than a bright light to think, "Hm, maybe it really is an angel!" It was so obvious from the start that it wouldn't be, that the ep felt fake.
Aren't angels a specific order in Catholic theology? One of the nine (twelve?) orders?
I'm not a Catholic, so I wouldn't know. I do know that angels are usually separated from human messengers, but that just added to the shoddiness of the ep for me - why would the priest think he was an angel, rather than a saint? Why would it matter?
However, Dean had spent the whole episode asking for a sign and denying that he would be given one - while I think the *writer's* logic is weak, I think the *character* has been shaken a little - cheap parlour tricks are what he sees of evil and thus he can accept them as good, too.
Yeah, I can get that Dean's all, "OMFG, that did not just happen," but writing-wise, it felt like a way of saying, "Look, just because this wasn't an angel, that doesn't mean God's not real. Maybe he is. Then again, maybe he isn't. Just don't be mad with us, okay?"
And coming to think of it, why don't they assume it's a parting gift from Father Gregory? "Oh, well. Guess I was wrong. Still, before I go... *SLAM* *wipes hands* There. Much better. Onwards and upwards!"
I mean, I was raised very, very religious. ... My issues, not the show's. :-) I was raised by Methodists so vague about religion that they may as well have been atheists (I went to Sunday School maybe half-a-dozen times in my life) so my approach to religion comes pretty much from literary and political places rather than emotional - a very different perspective indeed, and a reason why this episode didn't push buttons for me!
As for the horror trope, I think that's our different backgrounds again, because I quite happily accepted that "horror trope" might equal "angel" - it was not obvious to me that the angel would be fake (but I am fully aware that I am far less religious than most of the viewing audience and your reaction might be more common!)
I like your theory that it's better to assume it's Father Gregory at the end - whether his motivation was to help Dean, finish Sam's mission or simply stop the bad guy is irrelevant.
As for the horror trope, I think that's our different backgrounds again, because I quite happily accepted that "horror trope" might equal "angel" - it was not obvious to me that the angel would be fake (but I am fully aware that I am far less religious than most of the viewing audience and your reaction might be more common!)
I don't know. The way the story is set up, it's very traditionally SPN with two different theories and the hints leading up to the supernatural one being right - but then, angels are supernatural too, and I guess it could have been read as Dean being wrong. But knowing what kind of show it is, it seemed fairly unlikely that a messenger from God would show up.
You know, I think it would actually have been fairly cool if it had been a genuine angel who had gone fucked in the head and decided to wreak vengeance.
I like your theory that it's better to assume it's Father Gregory at the end - whether his motivation was to help Dean, finish Sam's mission or simply stop the bad guy is irrelevant.
It really surprised me that the thought never even occurred to Dean. We've seen ghosts killing people in strange ways before.
I like your "messed-up angel" storyline! And yes, it makes much more sense for Dean to assume ghost-action than God-action in the killing of the potential rapist, especially as he doesn't know the exact timing of the ghost being put to rest.
As for your comment below, halfway through second season was probably a good point to stop watching House. :(
Thanks. It would be a bit Myths Over Miami-ish, wouldn't it? *g*
And yes, it makes much more sense for Dean to assume ghost-action than God-action in the killing of the potential rapist, especially as he doesn't know the exact timing of the ghost being put to rest.
Yeah. The whole ep raging that God doesn't exist, and one measly little rebar?
As for your comment below, halfway through second season was probably a good point to stop watching House. :(
I keep intending to watch more eps, but I haven't heard good things about the rest of the show, so I haven't gotten around to it. So much else to watch.
Maybe I was inured because just two days before, House had had its own atheist-versus-believer episode, chock full of its own woolly theology.
I stopped watching House about halfway through season 2, since all episodes are so similar. Maybe I was lucky. :-)
But I was pleasantly surprised by the priests in the Supernatural episode, especially living!Priest, who came off as a believable, thoughtful portrayal of an inner city priest.
Yeah, I liked the priests, both of them. Plotwise, I don't really have a problem with the story. It's when the moral and philosophical issues come up that I go all, "OMG, don't bother your pretty little head with that, you're fucking it up!"
For me there was the added element of my own strong attraction to the idea of redemption, and God skewering a would-be rapist who had just been prevented from committing his first crime is not going to sit right with me on that level.
Redemption is good, but they were pretty obviously not going with the loving, forgiving God-image in this story, so that didn't bother me so much. Hollywood's pretty unforgiving in general. But yeah, that doesn't exactly help the issue either.
I'm not necessarily *looking* for that - I acknowledge that it's no worse from a mythological perspective than most of the other eps. The difference is that I usually don't give a crap.
I mean, I was raised very, very religious. I needed repeated pep talks from my best friend as a kid before I dared to use curse words without fear of smiting. I can't treat this like just another story. My issues, not the show's. :-)
Sam may have been arguing for smiting because he would like there to be higher powers of good, but I don't think the episode supported his view.
I think it kind of did, in that the question became "is this an angel?" rather than "is this a good thing?" But then, I'm of the opinion that it's a human's moral obligation to fight even angels if the angels are doing evil.
Also, we were dealing with one priest's idea of angels - he obviously thought of the power and smiting kind, not the cuddly big-eyed child in a nightie kind.
As I said, I'm fine with angels being scary. The trouble is that when the appearance of the angel is followed by the same kind of horror tropes we get from ghosts in all other eps, I need more than a bright light to think, "Hm, maybe it really is an angel!" It was so obvious from the start that it wouldn't be, that the ep felt fake.
Aren't angels a specific order in Catholic theology? One of the nine (twelve?) orders?
I'm not a Catholic, so I wouldn't know. I do know that angels are usually separated from human messengers, but that just added to the shoddiness of the ep for me - why would the priest think he was an angel, rather than a saint? Why would it matter?
However, Dean had spent the whole episode asking for a sign and denying that he would be given one - while I think the *writer's* logic is weak, I think the *character* has been shaken a little - cheap parlour tricks are what he sees of evil and thus he can accept them as good, too.
Yeah, I can get that Dean's all, "OMFG, that did not just happen," but writing-wise, it felt like a way of saying, "Look, just because this wasn't an angel, that doesn't mean God's not real. Maybe he is. Then again, maybe he isn't. Just don't be mad with us, okay?"
And coming to think of it, why don't they assume it's a parting gift from Father Gregory? "Oh, well. Guess I was wrong. Still, before I go... *SLAM* *wipes hands* There. Much better. Onwards and upwards!"
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I was raised by Methodists so vague about religion that they may as well have been atheists (I went to Sunday School maybe half-a-dozen times in my life) so my approach to religion comes pretty much from literary and political places rather than emotional - a very different perspective indeed, and a reason why this episode didn't push buttons for me!
As for the horror trope, I think that's our different backgrounds again, because I quite happily accepted that "horror trope" might equal "angel" - it was not obvious to me that the angel would be fake (but I am fully aware that I am far less religious than most of the viewing audience and your reaction might be more common!)
I like your theory that it's better to assume it's Father Gregory at the end - whether his motivation was to help Dean, finish Sam's mission or simply stop the bad guy is irrelevant.
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I don't know. The way the story is set up, it's very traditionally SPN with two different theories and the hints leading up to the supernatural one being right - but then, angels are supernatural too, and I guess it could have been read as Dean being wrong. But knowing what kind of show it is, it seemed fairly unlikely that a messenger from God would show up.
You know, I think it would actually have been fairly cool if it had been a genuine angel who had gone fucked in the head and decided to wreak vengeance.
I like your theory that it's better to assume it's Father Gregory at the end - whether his motivation was to help Dean, finish Sam's mission or simply stop the bad guy is irrelevant.
It really surprised me that the thought never even occurred to Dean. We've seen ghosts killing people in strange ways before.
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As for your comment below, halfway through second season was probably a good point to stop watching House. :(
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Thanks. It would be a bit Myths Over Miami-ish, wouldn't it? *g*
And yes, it makes much more sense for Dean to assume ghost-action than God-action in the killing of the potential rapist, especially as he doesn't know the exact timing of the ghost being put to rest.
Yeah. The whole ep raging that God doesn't exist, and one measly little rebar?
As for your comment below, halfway through second season was probably a good point to stop watching House. :(
I keep intending to watch more eps, but I haven't heard good things about the rest of the show, so I haven't gotten around to it. So much else to watch.
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(The comment has been removed)
I stopped watching House about halfway through season 2, since all episodes are so similar. Maybe I was lucky. :-)
But I was pleasantly surprised by the priests in the Supernatural episode, especially living!Priest, who came off as a believable, thoughtful portrayal of an inner city priest.
Yeah, I liked the priests, both of them. Plotwise, I don't really have a problem with the story. It's when the moral and philosophical issues come up that I go all, "OMG, don't bother your pretty little head with that, you're fucking it up!"
For me there was the added element of my own strong attraction to the idea of redemption, and God skewering a would-be rapist who had just been prevented from committing his first crime is not going to sit right with me on that level.
Redemption is good, but they were pretty obviously not going with the loving, forgiving God-image in this story, so that didn't bother me so much. Hollywood's pretty unforgiving in general. But yeah, that doesn't exactly help the issue either.
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