on the shadowlands of story and author
Concrit vs. analysis is once again up for debate, and I choose to let most of it slide, except for a statement that I see over and over again in discussions and that is to me completely wrongheaded: the idea that criticism of the story isn't criticism of the author
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But if they actually like the story, if they told it because they wanted to tell it, then of course the reviews are criticizing them as people. At that point, claiming that "I called the film misogynist, not the director" is splitting hairs.
Just because the director made a movie about sex, violence, and murder DOESN'T mean that s/he are advocates of such in RL. They could be a pacifist, for all we know. While I think that the author's worldview colors the story in different ways, I don't think that the worldview of the story reflects the writer's, and it's hard to seperate the writer's worldview from the story they set out to tell. So it's simpler to critique the story for being misogynist, and leave the creator out of it unless we learn from a verifiable source that s/he's a card carrying misogynist. Another thing is that while some people might have found Sin City misogynistic, yet another group may have found it to punish misogyny. For example, one person in my f-list thought that Sin City was anti-misogynist, because all the characters who hurt women got punished severely.
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I never said that it did. Stories like SC are obviously fantasy. The question becomes whether or not it's an acceptable fantasy.
So it's simpler to critique the story for being misogynist, and leave the creator out of it unless we learn from a verifiable source that s/he's a card carrying misogynist.
Of course it is, and I'd advocate doing that too. I just think it's extremely naïve to pretend that through doing this, none of what is said about the story will reflect upon the creator.
Another thing is that while some people might have found Sin City misogynistic, yet another group may have found it to punish misogyny.
Well, if people didn't have different opinions there wouldn't be much point in reviews at all, would there? ;-)
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Let me see if I can parse this out. I think we agree that the creator invests him/herself in the story, and their worldview colors the story. I think we diverge because you're saying that "If a story has x characteristic, then the creator has x worldview." Have I got this right?
My problem is that I don't think it's easy to seperate out the threads of the creator's worldview, the fictional world of the story (which we agree is fantasy), and the reader interpretation of the story (different opinions, one person's misogyny is another person's anti-misogyny. I've never watched Sin City but it's a good theoretical model.) IMO, unless you know the creator well, the creator's worldview is an unknown entity, and it's a shoot in the dark, based on a lot of little clues that may not all add up. The other part is the creator's skill--is it good enough to handle the themes/characters/story that s/he's trying to tell? OTOH, all the info about the ficverse is available (although open canon is subject to change), and we have the material to draw conclusions about its flaws/shortcomings/morals. Reader interpretation is a variable; sometimes people all agree that the story was X, and sometimes you get diverging opinions that it was X, Y, and Z.
Let's just ignore all the issues of variable reader interpretation, and assume we have the same view about the story. Sin City was misogynistic. I'm also going to assume that the author is a name stamped on the product, and we have no interviews to go on. The story itself is made up of the worldview of the creator,(what if? fantasy, fears, wish fulfillment, How the World Should Be, etc.), and a whole bunch of made up elements from everywhere. So in critiqueing the story, we don't know if the misogyny lies in the made up elements, the writer (either their worldview, or s/he failed to get across what s/he was trying to say and the message was mangled). We don't know how the story reflects on the writer. For all we know s/he was trying to show the evil of misogyny but failed, or trying to work out issues surrounding misogyny and didn't have a clear focus, or just wanted a cool story with violence and unaware of the misogynistic elements, or even promote misogyny, or using the story as a vehicle to understand an alien viewpoint. (Ursula Le Guin has a writing exercise, where you're supposed to write from the viewpoint of someone you hate.) There's a multitude of ways and reasons to tell a story.
That is why I don't think a critique of the story should be taken as a critique of the creator. We don't know which elements in the story is due to the story itself, and which is due to the creator's worldview. There are ways to figure it out (interviews, knowing the person, bios, comparing a broad sample of his/her work), but more often than not it's a shot in the dark.
Sorry for being so long-winded. :/
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From a writer's perspective, though - if the reviewer has criticized something (intentionally or not) that's actually straight from the writer's heart, saying "You're not your story" is utterly unhelpful and quite nasty.
The reviewer can't be expected to tread lightly - you never know what's going to touch people - but I think it's just common courtesy to allow the writer to lick their wounds a little.
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LOL, I agree. I think one way to tell is if the writer tells the same story over and over again. Either that, or they're writing from some sort of formula, and are in a rut.
The reviewer can't be expected to tread lightly - you never know what's going to touch people - but I think it's just common courtesy to allow the writer to lick their wounds a little.
I agree that the writer should be allowed to lick his/her wounds, be upset, etc. They've invested a lot into their work. They're human. But I also think that the writer should also remember that the reviewer isn't out to hurt them, that mostly there's no vendetta involved, and reader interpretation is variable. One person may have hated the story, while another person may have found it so inspiring it changed their life. For example, there's a huge variety of opinion on classic books. I can't stand James Joyce's writing, but some people think he's a genius. I've never met Joyce, so I have no opinion on him as a person.
You've given me a lot to think about, even beyond this discussion. Thanks. :)
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There are instances of authors hating their stories. A girl on my friendslist recently brought up the classic Swedish Kulla-Gulla series, and I recalled what I'd learned in Children's Lit class - that the author had been low on cash and forced to write sequel after sequel, including a rags-to-riches story, an evil rival, and so on up to the wedding. Our teacher told us she'd interviewed the author, and when she brought up the wedding, the author sighed and said, "I don't think they could have had a happy marriage. They were too different." And our teacher was all "Don't! Say! That!" It was a clear case of the reader being more emotionally invested than the writer.
But I also think that the writer should also remember that the reviewer isn't out to hurt them, that mostly there's no vendetta involved, and reader interpretation is variable.
Oh, yeah. There's a big difference between negative feedback and a flame, and I think that's vital to remember. (Though personally, I find most of the flames I get amusing. My favourite was the one that went "you are such a stupid bitch. I cant believe you made merry and pippin fucking gay you asshole. your just jealous because pippin is really fucking hot and your sum ugly stupid bitch. go fuck sum lesbian you stupid bitch." It's such a brilliant use of the English language.)
Lord knows I've trampled all over people's stories with no ill intent - though I've become a little more cautious through the years.
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LOL. I heard that Dorothy Sayers, of the Peter Wimsey novels, thought that all fiction was frivolous and was more invested in her academic writing. But she's famous for her mysteries.
And I do know that Joyce is dead. I reread my previous comment, and my wording made me sound like he was still alive. *sheepish*
Though personally, I find most of the flames I get amusing.
The flame was so bad, it was funny. :) I've never been flamed (yet), but I think negative feedback would be harder to take than flames, because the reader was paying attention and it is a judgement about the story.
Lord knows I've trampled all over people's stories with no ill intent - though I've become a little more cautious through the years.
Ditto. There have been times where someone should have taken my internet away. It took me a while to figure out the difference between reader expectation and actual story. *head desk* Sometimes, I wish feedbacking came with a manual. There's probably a whole bunch of posts about 'proper' feedbacking. ;)
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Generally speaking, it is. Mixed feedback is fun, though - a spoonful of sugar and all that.
It took me a while to figure out the difference between reader expectation and actual story.
*cough* I know what you mean, yeah.
Sometimes, I wish feedbacking came with a manual. There's probably a whole bunch of posts about 'proper' feedbacking. ;)
Probably. But even so, it'd depend on the fandom and forum. I have an old fandom friend who posts a WiP on exisle.net, and her readers are really pressuring her to give her story a happy ending. It's not so much, "Oh, wow, I hope everything turns out all right" as "What do you mean there's no happy ending? Of course there's a happy ending! Write the happy ending!" All in good humour, of course, but still, I'd be scared stiff to post a WiP there. (Though Birthdayverse aside, I don't really post WiPs anywhere.)
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Mixed feedback is my favorite kind. I actually find it the most flattering, because I feel like the reader was paying extra attention, and invested enough time to actually think about it and send a reply.
Probably. But even so, it'd depend on the fandom and forum. I have an old fandom friend who posts a WiP on exisle.net, and her readers are really pressuring her to give her story a happy ending.
I was thinking of links from metafandom. I've seen feedbacking etiquette posts on that comm; I just wish I'd seen them when I was first starting out. Well, at least your friend's fic is popular. Not sure if that would help if she wasn't planning on a happy ending, though.
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