on Robin Hood and American accents

[kattahj]

A couple of comments on my previous post about Robing Hood - Prince of Thieves got me thinking about accents, and languages, and why we're sometimes bothered by inaccuracy and sometimes not

Comments

[raincitygirl]

The director of Dangerous Liaisons got around the accent thing by having all his aristocratic French characters speak English with American accents and all the peasant or servant characters speak in an accent that sounded vaguely Irish. His reasoning was that since they were not in fact filming in French, and most of his actors were American, it made more sense for them to speak with their own accents. But there would've been an accent difference between upper class and lower class characters, so he made one up.

[kattahj]

That's very interesting. I didn't notice while watching the film what kind of accent people had - I rarely do unless it's glaringly obvious (or the accent is Swedish, because then it's the sweet tones of home *g*).

I do think it's admirable if the crew have a consistent thought about what the different types of speaking are supposed to represent, but then, a consistent view of anything at all seems to be a rare thing in Hollywood these days. *grin*

[lilith_morgana]

I definitely think there's a class issue. I also wish I knew more eloquently what it is about the English identity, but I'll leave it for others to analyse.

On the other hand, I personally cannot focus on anything but the annoying varieties of accents if a film is about one demographic group supposed to have the same accent and then one or two or five have adopted their very own versions. Then it usually grows into annoyance over other issues - why do they HAVE to import a big star from the US to sell British films? And if they absolutely have to, then why can't they a) hire experts in the matter and teach the star a belivable accent or b) let the star use the American accent? I mean, if the film is a good one, then I don't care but if Kevin Costner is in it, then it's usually not very good so... :p

Same thing with regional varieties - saw Populärmusik från Vittula and spent a long time being frustrated with how the accents were all over the place all the time. But I am a self-confessed nitpicker and details get to me more than

[kattahj]

On the other hand, I personally cannot focus on anything but the annoying varieties of accents if a film is about one demographic group supposed to have the same accent and then one or two or five have adopted their very own versions.

Well, who's to say a film is to be about one demographic group? Unless it's set in a small village, people are bound to have different accents. Hell, if I had a penny for every time people tell me, "But you don't sound like you're from Lund!" I'd not have to worry about paying the rent.

As for Robin Hood in particular, England in 1100-1500 was a schizo kind of country with dialects splitting all over the place. The medieval version of the Tower of Babel, if you like.

Then it usually grows into annoyance over other issues - why do they HAVE to import a big star from the US to sell British films?

British films hardly ever do that. Europuddings, yes (though they use European stars just as often). Hollywood films set in Europe - all the time. But those are three different things.

a) hire experts in the

[lilith_morgana]

Unless it's set in a small village, people are bound to have different accents.

Oh yes, but IF a film, like Blow Dry (a good example since it's both intended to be about one demographic group and a British film with Josh Hartnett) is meant to have those premises, I find it pointless and annoying when it can't fulfill it for shit. Josh Hartnett sounds adopted from some unknown area.

b) let the star use the American accent?

Am confused - I was under the impression that this was the case. Or am I missing something?

I was being both unclear and silly - I meant American English, or what would be a better label for it. Still, it's often the case that someone who clearly cannot provide a good accent is set to play a role where the accent doesn't even have a point. That's when I get cranky. For example, Angel doesn't have to be Irish - at some point before the first flashback aired when they realised David Boreanaz wasn't doing a good accent they could have changed the origin for the character. And I've seen Alan Rickman doing American

[kattahj]

Still, it's often the case that someone who clearly cannot provide a good accent is set to play a role where the accent doesn't even have a point. That's when I get cranky. For example, Angel doesn't have to be Irish - at some point before the first flashback aired when they realised David Boreanaz wasn't doing a good accent they could have changed the origin for the character.

David Boreanaz is really horrifyingly bad. I mean, James Marsters wouldn't fool an actual Brit, but he's not bad (and it's supposed to be a fake accent anyway). Boreanaz makes my ears cry blood.

As for Robin Hood - like you say, there is no way they could have depicted accurate accents anyway. Which means I think they could have let Costner drop the faux-British one in the first place.

But he's not. I don't know how long it's been since you saw the film, but his accent is clearly a subdued American (more newscaster than cowboy), not a faux British one. Maid Marian and Friar Tuck have faux British ones.

And no, I don't think RHPoT is a good film, even when

[brenk]

I know this is flippant but

[kattahj]

Interesting. I think you might be onto something there. If people are very many or very dominant, they have less of a reason to pay attention to others, I guess.

Swedes are very popular as villains too, btw. Peter Stormare almost always play villains (though that might have something to do with how he looks). Stellan Skarsgard was the villain in King Arthur (where the Roman hero was played by an Englishman...) and Max von Sydow has been a villain more than once, even though he's played Jesus too.

Of course, they can be any nationality the director wants. In Jurassic Park 2, Peter Stormare plays a Russian - but he curses in Swedish. Interesting, that.

So for me, "it's the wrong accent!" is sort of funny, because, well, it usually is. People just don't notice half of the time.

[lokisrose]

Really interesting comments. Haven't seen most of the movies you're talking about, but now I'm tempted to go rewatch LotR, because I don't recall hearing any Aussies. They were probably all baddies or New Zealanders

[kattahj]

Haven't seen most of the movies you're talking about, but now I'm tempted to go rewatch LotR, because I don't recall hearing any Aussies. They were probably all baddies or New Zealanders. :)

*grimaces* Yes, it's possible it was a Kiwi accent rather than an Aussie one. Anyway, whatever accent it is, the Orcs are the ones using it. Baddies are from the Southern hemisphere, evidently.

Aragorn's accent was always the one that jolted me out of those films, while I found, say, the hobbits' accents to be perfectly appropriate.

I've never thought of Aragorn's accent - does he sound more American than the other yanks in the cast? Or is it the Danish bit?

I don't think they could have gotten away with giving one of the Middle Earth cultures an American accent, because the dialogue would sound too funny. Do you know what I mean? It would sort of clash somehow.

Yes, I think it's unthinkable too. I just don't think it makes much sense that it's unthinkable. If Emperor Claudius can be a Brit and Shmi Skywalker a Swede (while her son and

[mudskipper]

Yes, I think it's unthinkable too. I just don't think it makes much sense that it's unthinkable. If Emperor Claudius can be a Brit and Shmi Skywalker a Swede (while her son and grandson are Americans), logically speaking Middle-Earth should be no different. But it is.

I think part of it is that Tolkien based his world and his stories firmly in old northern-european legends (such as Beowulf, the poetic Edda, Nibelungeleid etc), and while those weren't written in modern-day english, LOTR were, and names and such are adapted to that (after all, Tolkien was a linguist). The kiwi accents I think pass because they sound more "rural-english" than american would have (possibly because we are less used to hearing them).
Star Wars, on the other hand has its roots not only in classic hero-fairytales, but also in cowboy- and samuraimovies, making the american accent more acceptable.

There's also the whole old/new-world issue, but that's already been brought up elsewhere.

[kattahj]

One thing that really fucked my head up when I read the LotR original was the "this is all a translation, and none of these characters were actually called this" appendix. I went into a growling rage of "NO, GODDAMNIT, I have not abandoned my Ohlmarks to be told I'm just reading another translation!"

I think part of it is that Tolkien based his world and his stories firmly in old northern-european legends

I think it's a bit more complicated than that. The main (elven) mythology is Nordic/Celtic. The hobbits are Englishmen, though a non-classy kind (not Oxbridge), and Gondor is more Greek/Roman than anything else. The Rohan are old English/Saxon mixed with Viking.

Having Bilbo, Galadriel, Theoden and Denethor speaking in the same way does work, but it wouldn't hurt to differentiate them more.

But yeah, you're right that American sounsd more New World than Kiwi, even though that's not technically correct.

[sarcasticwriter]

Speaking as an American somewhat entranced by the British accent...

I don't get it either, except that it sounds better than anything we have over here. Maybe it's a holdover from history; that America's ancestors (or a major part of them) split from the British homeland, and had to farm and grub and work and try to tame the wilderness while the "civilized" mother country kept its path of luxury and sophistication. The British Empire was a pretty nifty thing, and we turned our backs on it. Maybe the British accent represents a master we Americans don't really want to overthrow.

*stops and in stunned silence rereads previous paragraph*

Holy shit, did I just write that?

Yes, I did...and although it's tempting to delete it, I'm going to leave it up there, because it just bled out of me, and that has to mean something. I don't get it either, but all I can say is that, as an American, any middle-class and up British accent just sounds more sophisticated and powerful than any American accent, no question. It's more musical. It's

[kattahj]

I don't think it's just the Americans. I tend to think of posh British accents as sophisticated and witty (most Swedes love English humour) even though my ancestors never ran away from the Empire. But then, I like accents altogether - they all have different "meanings" to me, but they all work. (Sort of like Italian vs. Russian in A Fish Called Wanda, come to think of it...) The bigger the mix is, the more I enjoy it. :-)

[sarcasticwriter]

Oh yeah? What does the American accent represent to you?

Another thought...perhaps Americans are somewhat entranced by British accents because we don't have a royal family, and by default, we use Great Britain's.

Plus, what does get exported to the United States from Britain tends to be about posh or upperclass people; either in historical settings or modern, almost always implying how important station and blood is. It's an idea that Americans vehemently deny but emotionally realize is sort of true - growing up with old money is just...different...than making your own.

In other words, the British media that reaches us exposes us mostly to aristocrats, and as such we connect the accent to being of the highest possible class - royalty or close to it. And who doesn't want to be around or listen to royalty?

That also reminds me of a quote from a J.D. Salinger story (I think) about a man wanting to adopt little British children because "They sound like geniuses...little goddamn professors running around."

[kattahj]

Oh yeah? What does the American accent represent to you?

Depends on the kind of accent. A New York accent represents sass and cheekiness. Southern sounds rural and down-to-earth (sometimes with a side of "vulgar"). A more nondescript American is hearty, cheerful, and a bit on the bossy side. (I keep wanting to write "no offense" after everything I say!)

Of course, this works best if the accent is isolated from similar ones. An American accent in a Britcom is more clearly American than it would be in E.R.

Plus, what does get exported to the United States from Britain tends to be about posh or upperclass people;Until recently, non-posh accents weren't allowed on British television. When Press Gang aired (1989-1994) there were complaints that the kids in the show didn't speak "properly" but dropped letters, changed vowels and all those other things that people tend to do