Can someone explain to me how Mormons believe people came from the Middle East and settled in the Americas 2500 BC? I mean...like give me some evidence of this
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the Book of Mormon details the history of a family who was warned of the destruction of Jerusalem around the year 600 BC. they were commanded by prophecy to leave civilization and to migrate to the sea, where Nephi, the youngest son in the family, was instructed by inspiration and divine communications to build a ship unlike any that the people of the same era had created. in this ship the family sailed across the sea and landed in the northern part of south america. the family eventually grew into two great nations, Nephites and Lamanites, who were almost constantly warring with each other until the time of the extermination of the more righteous nation in the year 421 AD. there is also contained in the Book of Mormon an abridgement of a record left by another great civilization called the Jaredites, who migrated in a similar way as Nephi's family, but at the time of the Biblical Tower of Babel and confounding of the languages thousands of years earlier. they populated what we call North America. this people was entirely extinct except for one man at the time their existence and records were discovered by the Nephites. the evidence? to make it simple, these things were given by inspiration and revelation through prophets of God. these prophets are given power and authority to convey our Heavenly Father's words to us, and if we desire to know of their truth, we have but to pray to our Father in Heaven for a witness or confirmation of the truth. this confirmation will typically come by a manifestation of the Holy Ghost, aka the Spirit of God, or the Comforter, who speaks peace to our hearts and wisdom to our minds. by this confirmation I know these things to be true.
as per Kolob, i don't fully understand it, nor do i expect to until i really need to know.
First off, I'd like to stress how I'm always willing to clear up any confusion or just answer questions. Seriously.
Secondly, evidence is so circumstantial. Yeah, I've seen a lot of documentaries and gone to lectures that strive to prove all of it. And there's some solid stuff there. But at the end of the day, you have to figure it out for yourself. And that takes faith.
By your entry, I'm guessing you haven't looked too much into this (and if you have, you're not using very accuracte sources). Am I wrong?
I just spent some time talking to a Mormon friend of mine and she gave me the book of mormon but I haven't read that much of it.
I mostly read articles online for a ocuple hours yesterday so it could be made up but they quoted the book of Abraham abou the Kolob thing and also the premises for your religion (middle easterners taking a boat to south america a long time ago) is widely known I think.
I'm just trying to understand how you can believe that (middle easterneres) when historically I don't ever remember being taught anything abou this. Wouldn't there be historical temples etc of all these events?
I understand where science ends and faith begins but not having faith in something history has no record of...but it could be true and history (archeology?) hasn't found anything yet.
I am interested in knowing if that "comforting feeling/holy ghost" is real or if it's just me wanting to believe what I want to beleive already.
I guess this is one of the MAIN reasons I'm not religious anymore...I don't know how anybody actually knows anything....they just believe and maybe that's not a bad thing just because it's illogical.
I do a lot of things that are illogical :) Like loving people who suck!
Well that's the thing, there is support out there. There is physical and especially archeological evidence. But my point was that without faith, it amounts to absolutely nothing.
But let me fully respond to this- 1. The last place you should be looking for information is online. I think you know me and several other friends well enough to know that you should ask them. I respect you. I don't like to step on anyone's toes, especially on something so personal. And I'd like to think I'm pretty well-educated on such matters. As is Josh.
2. I don't think science needs to end anywhere and have faith pick up where it left off. I think they are one in the same- the pursuit of truth. You just have to accept sometimes that we don't know everything. I mean, at one time the whole world believed the world was flat. And that was FACT. But I've never found my religion to differ from scientific or archeological findings and facts. If it did, I wouldn't believe it.
3. Most Mormons believe that you'll find temples, just like the one here in Mesa, in South/Middle America. Mayan temples and what not. I won't say this is true neccessarily, because I don't know. No one really knows. But I personally do believe that they either are ancient temples from that civilization or they're modeled after the temples they built.
4. And most importantly, I think you're looking for the wrong things. You want to know if Mormon-ism is based off fact? If it has any reality to it? Read the Book Of Mormon. I think it's easy to see if a book could be inspired or not. I mean, that's a pretty big claim. And also, I think you should read up on Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was what he claimed to be, then the Book Of Mormon is true. If that's true, then the church is true. It kind of all stems off of him.
I won't lie- it's a complicated and long process. But if there's any chance of any truth being there, I think it's worth your time. I mean, we're talking about something that not only results in your salvation but- more importantly- it would provide answers to making your life happy now. And those around you. Isn't that what Christianity, in any form, is all about? Fellowship? "Love One Another"?
As for me, I believe it. Joseph Smith as a prophet. The Book Of Mormon being ancient scripture. There being a prophet on the earth today. I know it's true.
I understanding taking things on "faith" like the existence of God and our beliefs in why we act the way we do and value certian human traits.
I don't understand taking history of faith. I mean....according to your explanation then native americans came from the people who broke off of the Middle East?
genetics pretty much says they came from Asia right?
If I believed something and science went against it wouldn't it kinda rock your fiath that it's literal truth?
Also are you considred an elder now or a preist? I read all up on that stuff too.
also how come only men can have the preisthood? I mean if God's all good, all present, and all knowing wouldn't women have just as much "power" to heal and teach the word of God just as much as a man can?
I actually always thought the same thing about women & the priesthood. And there's this really awesome book you should check out that sheds light on it- "Eve and the Choice Made In Eden" by Beverly Campbell.
But my mother always said that the reason was cause women simply didn't need the priesthood. I think it helps men to be their full potential. Most of that is just in a woman's nature.
yes, i am an Elder, i had been a Priest until i was 17.
i think a fuller explanation (and i am not quoting official Church doctrine, but my personal understanding) of the reason for men holding the Priesthood is this; the Priesthood is power from God, but it is the power to serve others, not oneself. it is required of men to serve more than women, as women have the greatest power of service inherent to their being - that of childbirth. there is nothing a man can do that can make him equal to a woman in that respect. the power of the Priesthood more or less evens out with the power of Motherhood.
to address another issue in this post, yes, Latter-day Saints do believe that the primary ancestors of the Native Americans originated from Palestine. to join with Tyson, there is evidence, and plenty of it, but science is often ambiguous, contrary, and circumstantial. evidence does not convince a mind of the truth and designs of our Heavenly Father. consider - should you be visited by an otherworldly messenger who told you there were certain men who were enlightened with all the necessary knowledge for us to obtain true happiness in this life and the life to come, wouldn't you seek to learn more? this is the testimony of every member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. we all have our own individual conviction that these things are true, which conviction has been bourne to us by the Holy Ghost. such an experience can be described, but must be felt to be understood.
i invite you to visit this website, http://mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/the-restoration-of-truth/god-is-your-loving-heavenly-father (i forgot the code for links, oops). it outlines the basic message of The Restoration of truth, Priesthood, and revelation onto the earth in our own time. the sections follow sequentially on the left side menu, from "God is our loving Heavely Father" to "How can I know this is true?" take a few minutes to read and consider what it means, and i think you will have a better understanding of why and how we believe as we do.
i appreciate you for being honest and open-minded about these things; so many people will not entertain new ideas. i'll answer questions as best i can for as long as you ask them :)
Going off Tyson's quote, "I've never found my religion to differ from scientific or archeological findings and facts. If it did, I wouldn't believe it" then essentially what Tyson is saying is that he believes what his religion says about science?
Science would say that Native Americans ( I also took stones, bones and human evolution at ASU with Serena...and this is what we were taught) are most closely related to Mongolians..pretty sure I remember this right.
Even in the 19th century (before genetics) natural philosophers thought that native Americans looked like they came from Mongolia...before genetics confirmed this.
So my big problem with religion (sorry to pick on Mormons it's just what I happened to start with)is when it contradicts empirical evidence which is (besides analytical definitions etc) the only knowledge we can truly go off of in society that's not subjective.
Doesn't this hinder the democratic process? social contracts (non-theocratic) in general? Going against the only knowledge society can agree upon?
Also, Joseph smith sounded really cool until he cheated on his wife and got a lot of wives.....which his wife denied to her death bed. That whole story just sounded really sad :(
Also, since he was the founding profit the whole polygamy excuse that the men died out traveling to Utah from Nauvoo (?) left them without husbands so the husbands needed to take on more wives can't really be used for the example of Joseph Smith.
I guess that sheds doubt on my belief that he truly was inspired by God when he could do something that bizaare. I mean the founder of the religion I was raised on Martin Luther was extremely anti-semetic so I'm not only saying the founder of your church had problems...I'm saying most religions do.
Why did Oliver Cromley (?) leave the church fro a while too?
that whole example of the husbands taking on more wives because the men died out I ONLY HEARD from people in middle school. I mostly had mormon friends and I honestly never thought about it until just now.
I'm saying that whole example could be complete crap from mormon friends I had in middle school...so don't think I made it up.
the evidence? to make it simple, these things were given by inspiration and revelation through prophets of God. these prophets are given power and authority to convey our Heavenly Father's words to us, and if we desire to know of their truth, we have but to pray to our Father in Heaven for a witness or confirmation of the truth. this confirmation will typically come by a manifestation of the Holy Ghost, aka the Spirit of God, or the Comforter, who speaks peace to our hearts and wisdom to our minds. by this confirmation I know these things to be true.
as per Kolob, i don't fully understand it, nor do i expect to until i really need to know.
i hope that helps
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Reply
First off, I'd like to stress how I'm always willing to clear up any confusion or just answer questions. Seriously.
Secondly, evidence is so circumstantial. Yeah, I've seen a lot of documentaries and gone to lectures that strive to prove all of it. And there's some solid stuff there.
But at the end of the day, you have to figure it out for yourself. And that takes faith.
By your entry, I'm guessing you haven't looked too much into this (and if you have, you're not using very accuracte sources). Am I wrong?
Reply
I mostly read articles online for a ocuple hours yesterday so it could be made up but they quoted the book of Abraham abou the Kolob thing and also the premises for your religion (middle easterners taking a boat to south america a long time ago) is widely known I think.
I'm just trying to understand how you can believe that (middle easterneres) when historically I don't ever remember being taught anything abou this. Wouldn't there be historical temples etc of all these events?
I understand where science ends and faith begins but not having faith in something history has no record of...but it could be true and history (archeology?) hasn't found anything yet.
Reply
I guess this is one of the MAIN reasons I'm not religious anymore...I don't know how anybody actually knows anything....they just believe and maybe that's not a bad thing just because it's illogical.
I do a lot of things that are illogical :) Like loving people who suck!
Reply
But let me fully respond to this-
1. The last place you should be looking for information is online. I think you know me and several other friends well enough to know that you should ask them. I respect you. I don't like to step on anyone's toes, especially on something so personal. And I'd like to think I'm pretty well-educated on such matters. As is Josh.
2. I don't think science needs to end anywhere and have faith pick up where it left off. I think they are one in the same- the pursuit of truth. You just have to accept sometimes that we don't know everything. I mean, at one time the whole world believed the world was flat. And that was FACT.
But I've never found my religion to differ from scientific or archeological findings and facts. If it did, I wouldn't believe it.
3. Most Mormons believe that you'll find temples, just like the one here in Mesa, in South/Middle America. Mayan temples and what not.
I won't say this is true neccessarily, because I don't know. No one really knows. But I personally do believe that they either are ancient temples from that civilization or they're modeled after the temples they built.
4. And most importantly, I think you're looking for the wrong things. You want to know if Mormon-ism is based off fact? If it has any reality to it? Read the Book Of Mormon. I think it's easy to see if a book could be inspired or not. I mean, that's a pretty big claim.
And also, I think you should read up on Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was what he claimed to be, then the Book Of Mormon is true. If that's true, then the church is true. It kind of all stems off of him.
I won't lie- it's a complicated and long process.
But if there's any chance of any truth being there, I think it's worth your time. I mean, we're talking about something that not only results in your salvation but- more importantly- it would provide answers to making your life happy now. And those around you.
Isn't that what Christianity, in any form, is all about? Fellowship? "Love One Another"?
As for me, I believe it. Joseph Smith as a prophet. The Book Of Mormon being ancient scripture. There being a prophet on the earth today. I know it's true.
Reply
I don't understand taking history of faith. I mean....according to your explanation then native americans came from the people who broke off of the Middle East?
genetics pretty much says they came from Asia right?
If I believed something and science went against it wouldn't it kinda rock your fiath that it's literal truth?
Reply
Also are you considred an elder now or a preist? I read all up on that stuff too.
also how come only men can have the preisthood? I mean if God's all good, all present, and all knowing wouldn't women have just as much "power" to heal and teach the word of God just as much as a man can?
I mean....what do men have that women don't?
Reply
And there's this really awesome book you should check out that sheds light on it- "Eve and the Choice Made In Eden" by Beverly Campbell.
But my mother always said that the reason was cause women simply didn't need the priesthood. I think it helps men to be their full potential. Most of that is just in a woman's nature.
Reply
i think a fuller explanation (and i am not quoting official Church doctrine, but my personal understanding) of the reason for men holding the Priesthood is this; the Priesthood is power from God, but it is the power to serve others, not oneself. it is required of men to serve more than women, as women have the greatest power of service inherent to their being - that of childbirth. there is nothing a man can do that can make him equal to a woman in that respect. the power of the Priesthood more or less evens out with the power of Motherhood.
to address another issue in this post, yes, Latter-day Saints do believe that the primary ancestors of the Native Americans originated from Palestine. to join with Tyson, there is evidence, and plenty of it, but science is often ambiguous, contrary, and circumstantial. evidence does not convince a mind of the truth and designs of our Heavenly Father. consider - should you be visited by an otherworldly messenger who told you there were certain men who were enlightened with all the necessary knowledge for us to obtain true happiness in this life and the life to come, wouldn't you seek to learn more? this is the testimony of every member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. we all have our own individual conviction that these things are true, which conviction has been bourne to us by the Holy Ghost. such an experience can be described, but must be felt to be understood.
i invite you to visit this website, http://mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/basic-beliefs/the-restoration-of-truth/god-is-your-loving-heavenly-father (i forgot the code for links, oops). it outlines the basic message of The Restoration of truth, Priesthood, and revelation onto the earth in our own time. the sections follow sequentially on the left side menu, from "God is our loving Heavely Father" to "How can I know this is true?" take a few minutes to read and consider what it means, and i think you will have a better understanding of why and how we believe as we do.
i appreciate you for being honest and open-minded about these things; so many people will not entertain new ideas. i'll answer questions as best i can for as long as you ask them :)
+
Reply
Science would say that Native Americans ( I also took stones, bones and human evolution at ASU with Serena...and this is what we were taught) are most closely related to Mongolians..pretty sure I remember this right.
Even in the 19th century (before genetics) natural philosophers thought that native Americans looked like they came from Mongolia...before genetics confirmed this.
So my big problem with religion (sorry to pick on Mormons it's just what I happened to start with)is when it contradicts empirical evidence which is (besides analytical definitions etc) the only knowledge we can truly go off of in society that's not subjective.
Doesn't this hinder the democratic process? social contracts (non-theocratic) in general? Going against the only knowledge society can agree upon?
Reply
Also, since he was the founding profit the whole polygamy excuse that the men died out traveling to Utah from Nauvoo (?) left them without husbands so the husbands needed to take on more wives can't really be used for the example of Joseph Smith.
I guess that sheds doubt on my belief that he truly was inspired by God when he could do something that bizaare. I mean the founder of the religion I was raised on Martin Luther was extremely anti-semetic so I'm not only saying the founder of your church had problems...I'm saying most religions do.
Why did Oliver Cromley (?) leave the church fro a while too?
Reply
I'm saying that whole example could be complete crap from mormon friends I had in middle school...so don't think I made it up.
Reply
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