enlighten THISfatglendaDecember 16 2005, 04:03:26 UTC
First off, Christmas was not made up to get rid of any pagan holiday. Christmas was not some big conspiracy to get rid of pagans. If ancient people wanted to get rid of pagans, they didn't waste their time planning holidays & being clever about it, k? By the way, Christ was born over 2000 years ago, so considering that's roughly 700 years before the end of your stupid pagan holiday, I think it's safe to say that Christmas is not "some holiday somebody made up to get rid of the pagan holiday Saturnalia". Second of all, Smartypants, if you opened your eyes, you'd remember that Christmas started as (and still is, for many people!) a religious holiday celebrating the birth of Christ. People celebrate by giving gifts to people they love & appreciate! And although the tradition started as a religious holiday, plenty of non-religious people celebrate in the same way. Why? Because it's a nice thing to do! So don't give me any cry-baby crap about Christmas killing off pagan holidays, especially when your "Gift Day" is using the same ideals as Christmas.
Re: enlighten THISlexicon_devil66December 16 2005, 23:13:32 UTC
Actually, you're wrong. Christmas was first celebrated some time in the late 300s by the Emperor Constantine. (Just because Christ was born about 2000 years ago [about 6 A.D. at the latest, 6 B.C. at the earliest] it doesn't mean that his birth was celebrated immediately.) I was incorrect when I said 1300 years ago, I should have said about 1700 years ago. The reason for Constantine's attempt to abolish and overshadow Saturnalia with another holiday were quite simple: he was a Christian and controlled the Roman empire, therefore he wanted everyone to believe what he believed. Because the scholar St. Hippolytus claimed that Jesus's birthdate was January 25th, it overlapped with the time that Saturnalia took place and gave Constantine the claim to make a joint religious festival for pagans and Christians.
Anyway, my original point was, why is my opinion less valid than the opinion of somebody who just wanted to replace Saturnalia with Christmas? Aren't I doing exactly the same thing, only replacing Christmas with Gift Day?
For future reference, I would suggest that you actually check facts when trying to debate a scholarly point instead of just saying things that can't be backed up. Please, just accept that you're wrong and that Christmas was created simply to diminish the role of paganism and Saturnalia in the Roman empire.
Re: enlighten THISlexicon_devil66December 18 2005, 06:43:25 UTC
I was sharing the joy of Saturnalia and Gift Day by spreading knowledge! Speaking of which, it's this...Wednesday! Everybody celebrate by setting your slaves free for a week and sacrificing someone you hate to the Saturn.
Re: enlighten THISfatglendaDecember 18 2005, 17:54:35 UTC
Christ's birth was celebrated immediately, seen with the arrival of the three gift-giving wise men to the manger.
I know about pagans converting & assimilating into Christianity, and I never once denied it, so don't talk to me like I'm ignorant. What I said was that Christmas wasn't made up for the sole purpose of getting rid of pagans. It's a religious holiday, just like all the other religious holidays celebrated around the same time. Religions come & go, some keep on truckin' & others die out. Remember that Christians were once in the minority.
You make it sound like Christianity exists only to squash other religions. You are so busy hating Christians that you ignore the good ideals they try to follow. Why are you so focused on being such a counter-culture dick? I don't care that you're atheist, I'm not even religious myself, but how dare you walk around condemning people for having faith.
To answer your question, your opinion is less valid because you waste all your energy going against the mainstream, no matter what it is, and you always have to turn something into a political debate. And no, you aren't doing the same thing by replacing Christmas with "Gift Day", because "Gift Day" is just your excuse to get Christmas presents without having to feel like a hypocrite. But guess what. You still are.
For future reference, I would suggest that when having an argument involving religion, you might want to remember that the reason why there are so many religions is because things aren't black & white, and people disagree on the facts. So for the record, I did actually "check my facts", they just didn't happen to agree with yours. You wanna condemn me for it?
Anyway. I'm done here. Because I want to enjoy my Christmas. And not waste my time arguing with John. I hope you get coal in your "Gift Day" stocking.
For enlightenment comes dropping slowlexicon_devil66December 19 2005, 03:58:57 UTC
You make it sound like Christianity exists only to squash other religions. You are so busy hating Christians that you ignore the good ideals they try to follow. Why are you so focused on being such a counter-culture dick?
Sorry, but you're wrong again. I don't hate Christians, I hate Christianity and fundamentalist Christians. I also don't hate just Christianity, I hate pretty much every religion. Why? Religion has brought us the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, suicide bombers, the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, Intelligent Design, and imperialism. All religion is is a history of exploiting the superstitions and stupidity of people that will believe whatever they're told. If people don't believe, they're forced to! Forgive me for not believing in a book of fairy tales or the speeches of a thousand idiot "prophets," but I see very few good things in religion. It's a quagmire for the stupid and the ultimate goal of all religions is to establish itself as the "true" religion and eradicate all others.
As for the Magi celebrating the birth of Christ, that's correct. However, you spoke of the celebration of Christmas as an established and widely celebrated thing, where the Magi were the only people who worshipped Christ at his birth (that, just according to the writings in a foolish book). Christmas as a widely celebrated holiday, however did not come around until Constantine's "joint" holiday for Christians and Pagans.
To answer your question, your opinion is less valid because you waste all your energy going against the mainstream, no matter what it is, and you always have to turn something into a political debate. And no, you aren't doing the same thing by replacing Christmas with "Gift Day", because "Gift Day" is just your excuse to get Christmas presents without having to feel like a hypocrite. But guess what. You still are.
Actually, you're wrong on this, too. I don't always go against the mainstream. I love a great deal of things that are popular on the wide scale, not that you care, though. I don't always turn everything into a politcal debate, either, it's just when somebody states a politcal opinion that I don't agree with I debate it. Is it wrong to have a belief in a politcal cause? You seem to think a religious belief isn't wrong, so why is a politcal belief wrong? You're right, though, I am a hypocrite. But so are you, and so are all people that are even part human. And I didn't make "Gift Day" out of a hatred for things. However, the fact that you hate it so much makes me want to continue just to spite you.
I don't care that you're atheist, I'm not even religious myself, but how dare you walk around condemning people for having faith.
Oh my golly! It...it almost sounds like you're condemning me for not having faith! How can that be? Are you a hypocrite, too?
And not waste my time arguing with John.
I have to question this part. You're the one who started arguing with me, so you really have nobody to blame but yourself. I'm inclined to think that you did it on purpose. Even you should know me well enough to know that I'd react by pointing out that you're wrong.
-Francis
P.S.- I hope you have a good Christmas and a happy holiday. (The preceding statement was not meant to be sarcastic, though if you wish to take it that way, you may.)
done. for real.fatglendaDecember 21 2005, 01:16:11 UTC
I know I said I was done here, but I wanted to clear a few things up.
K, so, first off:
- I never hated on you for not having faith. In fact, if you read back (or just read the line you lifted from my comment), you'll notice that I said, "I don't care that you're an atheist, I'm not even religious myself". Whether someone is religious or not, it is not cool to hate on someone else for being religious/not, and there's no way I condone that. It's disrespectful & it's not like we need any more hate/problems between religions today. I never implied in any way that it is wrong of you to not have faith. So. Don't put words in my mouth, kthx.
- Being religious does not make you weak, stupid, or foolish. Not believing in God does not make you superior or smarter than someone who does. Period. When you say/imply things like that, you're the one that sounds ignorant.
- I didn't say it was wrong to have a political belief. What I said is you seem to turn every conversation into a political debate. Which. can get very tiresome/obnoxious.
- Never said you started the argument. I meant I wasn't going to let the argument waste any more of my time. And evidently. It still did.
Re: enlighten THISkate_tasticDecember 17 2005, 19:12:47 UTC
Well actually, Christmas did kind of "kill off" the Pagan winter holiday, and it adopted alot of Pagan symbolism in order to warm natives up to Christian celebrations, the purpose of which was eventual conversion. But I wouldn't write off Christmas as a malicious attempt to kill off Druid beliefs - Christmas is a religious holiday, and besides you can't really ignore all the family, joy, peace etc etc etc it has associated with it now. +Just because Christianity is such a predominate and popular religion doesn't make it okay to condemn them.
Besides I love Christmas, everything smells good and looks pretty and people are nice for no reason, and there's Santa and trees and presents ALL AROUND. What's not to love?
Christmas was not some big conspiracy to get rid of pagans.
If ancient people wanted to get rid of pagans, they didn't waste their time planning holidays & being clever about it, k? By the way, Christ was born over 2000 years ago, so considering that's roughly 700 years before the end of your stupid pagan holiday, I think it's safe to say that Christmas is not "some holiday somebody made up to get rid of the pagan holiday Saturnalia".
Second of all, Smartypants, if you opened your eyes, you'd remember that Christmas started as (and still is, for many people!) a religious holiday celebrating the birth of Christ.
People celebrate by giving gifts to people they love & appreciate!
And although the tradition started as a religious holiday, plenty of non-religious people celebrate in the same way.
Why? Because it's a nice thing to do!
So don't give me any cry-baby crap about Christmas killing off pagan holidays, especially when your "Gift Day" is using the same ideals as Christmas.
kbyyyyyye.
Reply
St. Hippolytus claimed that Jesus's birthdate was January 25th, it overlapped with the time that Saturnalia took place and gave Constantine the claim to make a joint religious festival for pagans and Christians.
Anyway, my original point was, why is my opinion less valid than the opinion of somebody who just wanted to replace Saturnalia with Christmas? Aren't I doing exactly the same thing, only replacing Christmas with Gift Day?
For future reference, I would suggest that you actually check facts when trying to debate a scholarly point instead of just saying things that can't be backed up. Please, just accept that you're wrong and that Christmas was created simply to diminish the role of paganism and Saturnalia in the Roman empire.
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I know about pagans converting & assimilating into Christianity, and I never once denied it, so don't talk to me like I'm ignorant.
What I said was that Christmas wasn't made up for the sole purpose of getting rid of pagans.
It's a religious holiday, just like all the other religious holidays celebrated around the same time.
Religions come & go, some keep on truckin' & others die out.
Remember that Christians were once in the minority.
You make it sound like Christianity exists only to squash other religions.
You are so busy hating Christians that you ignore the good ideals they try to follow.
Why are you so focused on being such a counter-culture dick?
I don't care that you're atheist, I'm not even religious myself, but how dare you walk around condemning people for having faith.
To answer your question, your opinion is less valid because you waste all your energy going against the mainstream, no matter what it is, and you always have to turn something into a political debate.
And no, you aren't doing the same thing by replacing Christmas with "Gift Day", because "Gift Day" is just your excuse to get Christmas presents without having to feel like a hypocrite.
But guess what.
You still are.
For future reference, I would suggest that when having an argument involving religion, you might want to remember that the reason why there are so many religions is because things aren't black & white, and people disagree on the facts. So for the record, I did actually "check my facts", they just didn't happen to agree with yours. You wanna condemn me for it?
Anyway.
I'm done here.
Because I want to enjoy my Christmas.
And not waste my time arguing with John.
I hope you get coal in your "Gift Day" stocking.
Reply
You are so busy hating Christians that you ignore the good ideals they try to follow.
Why are you so focused on being such a counter-culture dick?
Sorry, but you're wrong again. I don't hate Christians, I hate Christianity and fundamentalist Christians. I also don't hate just Christianity, I hate pretty much every religion. Why? Religion has brought us the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, suicide bombers, the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, Intelligent Design, and imperialism. All religion is is a history of exploiting the superstitions and stupidity of people that will believe whatever they're told. If people don't believe, they're forced to! Forgive me for not believing in a book of fairy tales or the speeches of a thousand idiot "prophets," but I see very few good things in religion. It's a quagmire for the stupid and the ultimate goal of all religions is to establish itself as the "true" religion and eradicate all others.
As for the Magi celebrating the birth of Christ, that's correct. However, you spoke of the celebration of Christmas as an established and widely celebrated thing, where the Magi were the only people who worshipped Christ at his birth (that, just according to the writings in a foolish book). Christmas as a widely celebrated holiday, however did not come around until Constantine's "joint" holiday for Christians and Pagans.
To answer your question, your opinion is less valid because you waste all your energy going against the mainstream, no matter what it is, and you always have to turn something into a political debate.
And no, you aren't doing the same thing by replacing Christmas with "Gift Day", because "Gift Day" is just your excuse to get Christmas presents without having to feel like a hypocrite.
But guess what.
You still are.
Actually, you're wrong on this, too. I don't always go against the mainstream. I love a great deal of things that are popular on the wide scale, not that you care, though. I don't always turn everything into a politcal debate, either, it's just when somebody states a politcal opinion that I don't agree with I debate it. Is it wrong to have a belief in a politcal cause? You seem to think a religious belief isn't wrong, so why is a politcal belief wrong? You're right, though, I am a hypocrite. But so are you, and so are all people that are even part human. And I didn't make "Gift Day" out of a hatred for things. However, the fact that you hate it so much makes me want to continue just to spite you.
I don't care that you're atheist, I'm not even religious myself, but how dare you walk around condemning people for having faith.
Oh my golly! It...it almost sounds like you're condemning me for not having faith! How can that be? Are you a hypocrite, too?
And not waste my time arguing with John.
I have to question this part. You're the one who started arguing with me, so you really have nobody to blame but yourself. I'm inclined to think that you did it on purpose. Even you should know me well enough to know that I'd react by pointing out that you're wrong.
-Francis
P.S.- I hope you have a good Christmas and a happy holiday. (The preceding statement was not meant to be sarcastic, though if you wish to take it that way, you may.)
Reply
K, so, first off:
- I never hated on you for not having faith. In fact, if you read back (or just read the line you lifted from my comment), you'll notice that I said, "I don't care that you're an atheist, I'm not even religious myself". Whether someone is religious or not, it is not cool to hate on someone else for being religious/not, and there's no way I condone that. It's disrespectful & it's not like we need any more hate/problems between religions today. I never implied in any way that it is wrong of you to not have faith. So. Don't put words in my mouth, kthx.
- Being religious does not make you weak, stupid, or foolish. Not believing in God does not make you superior or smarter than someone who does. Period. When you say/imply things like that, you're the one that sounds ignorant.
- I didn't say it was wrong to have a political belief. What I said is you seem to turn every conversation into a political debate. Which. can get very tiresome/obnoxious.
- Never said you started the argument. I meant I wasn't going to let the argument waste any more of my time. And evidently. It still did.
kbye.
Reply
Besides I love Christmas, everything smells good and looks pretty and people are nice for no reason, and there's Santa and trees and presents ALL AROUND. What's not to love?
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