*cough* I've been thinking.
ginzai posted a link to a Devin Grayson interview, and That Picture had me thinking about Deathstroke and Dick and how they relate to each other. And then I started thinking about Dick and romance and the people I ship him with.
So, my very first DC-comics meta.
Mentions of various Nightwing issues, including but most likely not limited to 80, 110, and 113. Mention of various other unspecifed comics, and an assumption of basic canon knowledge especially of Bruce, Dick, and Tim.
I have three Dick OTPs: Bruce/Dick, Dick/Tim, and Deathstroke/Dick. Yes, I know that ruins the One nature of One True Pairing, shut up. It made sense in my head.
First I'm going to address the canon couples that I know. There are undoubtedly ones I missed, but the first one and the last one are so far as I am aware _The_ Dick Hetero Love Affairs.
Dick/Barbara: Yes, I see it. Their doomed love is sweet. But I don't think it could ever be brought back, and I don't think they want it to be. Dick might, based on a Grayson interview I read (http://www.devingrayson.com/interviews.html second one on the list), but I don't think it's Barbara he wants to win back so much as his own innocence. Barbara and Dick--Batgirl and Robin--seem to be, in my opinion, the 'childhood sweethearts' of the Batverse. I think Dick needs to bring back that time, where no one killed and no one died. But he isn't Robin anymore, he's Nightwing. Barbara isn't Batgirl anymore, she's Oracle. I don't think it could work, and in the long run? Healthier if it doesn't.
Dick/Huntress: One-night stand, in my opinion. She wouldn't mind doing it again, he would.
Dick/Koriand'r: I'm just going to quote Dick himself here. "Kory...filled a need for affection I had at that time." Even at the wedding scene, Kory doubted his love for her. Friends? Absolutely. Lovers? Yeah, I buy it. In love? Well...no.
So now for the pairings I do believe in.
Bruce/Dick: Oh boy. Man, do I ship this couple. Do I believe that Bruce slept with Dick while Dick was Robin? No. Do I believe that Bruce found him drop-dead gorgeous and kind of wanted to, especially around Dick's sixteenth birthday (and angsted about it like mad)? Do I believe that Dick wanted Bruce to sleep with him, for quite a few reasons? Hell yes, to both questions. I have wankfic *brewing* in my mind set in that era.
Why do I ship this couple, some of you ask. (Well, not really, I just want to rant.) Dick obviously adores Bruce. This adoration is clearly also filial (certainly at first), platonic or not as the interpretation goes. Bruce just as obviously adores Dick, even though Dick himself can *never* see it. Tim can. Everyone else can. Dick is oblivious.
NW 110: “Tim: ‘ ... remember how I once told you that Batman needed a Robin? Well, that's still true, but even more than that, he... he needs you. You know, not like every second or whatever, but at the end of the day, he needs to know you're still on his side. It's... important.’
Dick: *stops* *pulls his hood off* *KICKS THE FUCK OUT OF A NEWSSTAND* ‘YOU--!’ *tiny voice, looking away* ‘...have no idea how much of my life I've wasted believing that was true.’” It is canon, I tell you. I have no words. (quoted from maelithil’s livejournal)
Bruce and Dick...need each other, is the best way I can put it. Raging hurt and fury and ISSUES aside, they need each other. And they love each other. Obsessive, needy, totally unhealthy love--but still love. That aspect is never going to change.
And I doubt Bruce would ever sleep with Dick as, like, a committed relationship. This is Bruce we’re talking about here.
Perhaps the best Bruce/Dick fic in all the world, for how I view them, is Routine by Te and Iconic by Te and Jack, both of which can be found at Te's site.
Dick/Tim: This is definitely my Tim OTP, speak not to me of Tim/Kon or of Tim/Bart or of Tim/Kon/Bart even though they are indeed cute and I can see them.
This is also wankfic, at least in my head. Tim--oh, my freaky little stalker boy, how I adore your obsessive love. The boy met Dick at three years of age and was so affected by Dick and the events of that day/night that *he never forgot him and in fact started stalking him obsessively*. Dick loves Tim, but he doesn't *need* him. Not like Tim needs Dick (those jokes never stop being funny).
NW 110--“Dick: *thinks* ‘God, I love that kid. Dick: *still thinking* Too much to let him see me like this.’ (quoted from maelithil’s journal) *huggles Dick* My baby and his Blockbuster Issues. “Dick: ‘From now on, it'd be better if you forgot you ever knew me.’ T: *tiny voice while Dick is walking away* ... fat chance.’ (quoted from maelithil’s journal) Tim, Tim, he couldn’t forget Dick if he tried.
Pretty much the only circumstances under which I can see this happening are if Dick thought Tim had died, like in that one issue with the Molotov cocktail and the inferno and Dick was crying. I can see Dick jumping up and hauling Tim to him, and just…holding him there. Because this is Dick, and physical contact is what he does.
And maybe Tim would be hard, and Dick would feel it, and for a moment he wouldn’t know how to react. But I think…he would be so on-edge from almost losing Tim, little brother whom he loves, that he would be okay with crossing that line. Because then Tim would *be there*.
My single favorite Dick/Tim is Bite Your Lip by Te, located at her website.
And last, but most definitely not least, is Slade (comics, for the purpose of this meta)/Nightwing. My current obsession and boy am I obsessed. Going to squee now…
“I mean, the guy who would stop him in his tracks would be a little older, very strong, very dominant, and in some kind of horrific emotional pain, but Dick’s not conscious of any of that. He’s more likely, probably, to have time to develop an intimate relationship with another hero (or civil servant - someone whose work might parallel his own and someone who might be able to understand what he does in the world enough to feel comfortable with him doing it), and, for him with his intense loyalty issues, the best case scenario would be someone he already knows and trusts and feels comfortable with - but ultimately it goes back to that sexual “on” switch for him. Type isn’t as important as passion and opportunity. Because of his psycho-sexual makeup, the other key factor would be a sense that he means something to that other man, that his “surrender” is making that man happy, allowing him to bring pleasure to someone (as he was never allowed to do for Bruce). There’s also a sense, if I may be so bold, of needing to be “caught” and “held down” - this going back to the trauma of losing his parents...being strong and passionate and heroic and virile and loving with a woman is fantastic, he lives for that. But he lost both parents. There is also a part of him that longs to be pinned down and loved a little bit savagely and hurt just enough to reassure him that he’s alive.” (http://www.devingrayson.com/interviews.html first one on the list)
Dude. Slade. (Okay, and Bruce, but Slade!) Little older--lot older, actually, but seriously built for a white-haired old man. And kinda hot, even with the goatee.
"Very strong"--do I even need to elaborate on this? It’s entirely possible that Devin also means mentally/emotionally strong, in which case this still applies. Given that Slade was canonically almost able to make the Green Lantern ring work, or at the very least stop it from working for its wielder, through *sheer force of will* (*fangirls wildly*) in Identity Crisis #3, mental strength is kind of a ‘duh’.
"Very dominant"--once again, is elaboration required? He *screams* top.
"In some kind of horrific emotional pain"--this is the one line where I thought Bruce over Slade. Because Slade just doesn’t *show* emotional pain like Bruce does, despite having it (shot in the eye by his wife, oldest son dead, youngest son fought him, youngest son dead *because he asked his father to kill him, oh dear God the angst*, possessed by youngest son, kills his loyal friend Wintergreen under the influence of said possession, did I miss anything?).
"Develop an intimate relationship with another hero"--*blinks* Will anti-hero count? Because Deathstroke is no ordinary villian.
"Someone whose work might parallel his own and someone who might be able to understand what he does in the world enough to feel comfortable with him doing it"--*considers* This line is the single biggest obstacle to Slade/Nightwing. Because there’s no way ‘mercenary’ and ‘assassin’ parallel ‘vigilante hero’, although post-Blockbuster-death Slade could work it. The man is scarily devious. But, even if he couldn’t seduce Dick over to the Dark Side, he would understand what and why Nightwing exists. And I think he’d feel reasonably comfortable with it.
"The best case scenario would be someone he already knows and trusts and feels comfortable with"--Well, "trusts" is perhaps a little strong. But, as ginzai put it, "Dick feels comfortable enough around him to appear without his mask and to change his clothes. Slashy thoughts aside, even one as comfortable with his body as Dick apparently is would have some sort of unease at being in a room, half naked, with a potential enemy. That he doesn't, and furthermore, that Sir Wilson keeps refusing to take hits on Nightwing and keeps tabs on Dick […]" Yeah. The man is half-naked with Deathstroke staring at him. No sense of shame or discomfort whatsoever, no air of ‘why are you looking at me like that’, just utter ease. It *begs* slash, and indicates at least some level of trust.
"He means something to that other man, that his “surrender” is making that man happy, allowing him to bring pleasure to someone"--Well, let’s see…Deathstroke has halted a contract on a target because he let Dick bid out the contract, refused a contract on Dick, has canonically stated that he respects Dick and doesn’t want to kill him…shall I continue? If Dick doesn’t know by now that Slade cares about him, in some fashion, at least a little bit, he’s just as oblivious as he is regarding Bruce. And who here doesn’t think Dick’s "surrender" would make Slade happy, especially after seeing That Picture? *crickets chirp* And the pleasure thing…that’s what ficcers are here for.
"Needing to be 'caught' and 'held down' […]longs to be pinned down and loved a little bit savagely and hurt just enough to reassure him that he’s alive"--*raised eyebrow* Well. That Slade could certainly manage, perhaps better than Bruce could. There’s a *reason* toonverse people write Slade using restraints, and toonverse Slade seems to be heavily modeled on comicsverse Slade.
Okay, linking to every Slade/Nightwing fic I know, because there just aren’t enough. I am not including any Slade/Robin fic in this list, since the meta was specifically S/N. http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1365177/1/ (comicsverse)
http://www.livejournal.com/users/yami_no_kaiba/45219.html (incorporates toonverse, ATT, and comicsverse)
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2165719/1/ (toonverse, ATT)
http://www.livejournal.com/community/teentitan_slash/28479.html#cutid1 (toonverse, but not ATT, with art)
http://www.livejournal.com/users/rubynye/132855.html#cutid1 (comicsverse)
If anyone has more, please please please give them to me.
"Personally, I think he’s bisexual. I mean, look at his history - there’s no denying that he likes women. The way I think about him, he likes everyone, he’s sort of a contact junkie - just this incredibly physical (and attractive) person who lives wholly in the corporeal plane and responds with - processes things in - his body before his head or heart. I imagine that he can be hypnotized by a touch the way other people can be stopped dead in their tracks by the sight of money or the promise of true love. I think he likes kicking and kissing in almost equal measure - except kissing edges out ahead because you can do it for longer and it leads to nicer things. It’s difficult to communicate in a comic, but he’s the guy who never stops moving, who touches you a lot when he’s trying to get something across to you, who withholds himself - becoming physically very rigid and distant - when he’s unhappy about something. I’m writing a novel for WB right now that he’s in and I have one scene where Batman has to stop a fight before it gets out of control, and most of the people he can just yell or glare at, but with Dick, he just stands really close behind him and Dick freezes. That’s not supposed to be a sexual thing (though it is kinda hot! ::laughs::), it’s an understanding on Bruce’s part that his physical proximity will speak just as quickly and loudly to Dick as his voice, maybe even be processed faster. And I think a large part of Dick’s rather complicated romantic history has to do with the fact that he can be incredibly focused and intense and intimate in a way most people can’t - when he’s with you, he’s 100% with you - and then he can also get up and just go to the next thing and be 100% there, whether it’s work or, god help you if you’re in love with him, someone else. And he doesn’t mean this at all in the typical “notches in the belt” way, it’s a hunger inside of him, a way of communicating. Think, for a minute, about being an aerialist. Your life depends on latching on to that other person’s wrists - the human touch is literally what saves you."--Devin Grayson
"Dick! Dick being a needy, fuck-me-now bottom. Dick being touch-sexual."--maelithil, referencing a Grayson interview linked above
Those paragraphs up there? Give me so many ideas. Expect fic, and make sure to nag me about it.
So, my very first DC-comics meta.
Mentions of various Nightwing issues, including but most likely not limited to 80, 110, and 113. Mention of various other unspecifed comics, and an assumption of basic canon knowledge especially of Bruce, Dick, and Tim.
I have three Dick OTPs: Bruce/Dick, Dick/Tim, and Deathstroke/Dick. Yes, I know that ruins the One nature of One True Pairing, shut up. It made sense in my head.
First I'm going to address the canon couples that I know. There are undoubtedly ones I missed, but the first one and the last one are so far as I am aware _The_ Dick Hetero Love Affairs.
Dick/Barbara: Yes, I see it. Their doomed love is sweet. But I don't think it could ever be brought back, and I don't think they want it to be. Dick might, based on a Grayson interview I read (http://www.devingrayson.com/interviews.html second one on the list), but I don't think it's Barbara he wants to win back so much as his own innocence. Barbara and Dick--Batgirl and Robin--seem to be, in my opinion, the 'childhood sweethearts' of the Batverse. I think Dick needs to bring back that time, where no one killed and no one died. But he isn't Robin anymore, he's Nightwing. Barbara isn't Batgirl anymore, she's Oracle. I don't think it could work, and in the long run? Healthier if it doesn't.
Dick/Huntress: One-night stand, in my opinion. She wouldn't mind doing it again, he would.
Dick/Koriand'r: I'm just going to quote Dick himself here. "Kory...filled a need for affection I had at that time." Even at the wedding scene, Kory doubted his love for her. Friends? Absolutely. Lovers? Yeah, I buy it. In love? Well...no.
So now for the pairings I do believe in.
Bruce/Dick: Oh boy. Man, do I ship this couple. Do I believe that Bruce slept with Dick while Dick was Robin? No. Do I believe that Bruce found him drop-dead gorgeous and kind of wanted to, especially around Dick's sixteenth birthday (and angsted about it like mad)? Do I believe that Dick wanted Bruce to sleep with him, for quite a few reasons? Hell yes, to both questions. I have wankfic *brewing* in my mind set in that era.
Why do I ship this couple, some of you ask. (Well, not really, I just want to rant.) Dick obviously adores Bruce. This adoration is clearly also filial (certainly at first), platonic or not as the interpretation goes. Bruce just as obviously adores Dick, even though Dick himself can *never* see it. Tim can. Everyone else can. Dick is oblivious.
NW 110: “Tim: ‘ ... remember how I once told you that Batman needed a Robin? Well, that's still true, but even more than that, he... he needs you. You know, not like every second or whatever, but at the end of the day, he needs to know you're still on his side. It's... important.’
Dick: *stops* *pulls his hood off* *KICKS THE FUCK OUT OF A NEWSSTAND* ‘YOU--!’ *tiny voice, looking away* ‘...have no idea how much of my life I've wasted believing that was true.’” It is canon, I tell you. I have no words. (quoted from maelithil’s livejournal)
Bruce and Dick...need each other, is the best way I can put it. Raging hurt and fury and ISSUES aside, they need each other. And they love each other. Obsessive, needy, totally unhealthy love--but still love. That aspect is never going to change.
And I doubt Bruce would ever sleep with Dick as, like, a committed relationship. This is Bruce we’re talking about here.
Perhaps the best Bruce/Dick fic in all the world, for how I view them, is Routine by Te and Iconic by Te and Jack, both of which can be found at Te's site.
Dick/Tim: This is definitely my Tim OTP, speak not to me of Tim/Kon or of Tim/Bart or of Tim/Kon/Bart even though they are indeed cute and I can see them.
This is also wankfic, at least in my head. Tim--oh, my freaky little stalker boy, how I adore your obsessive love. The boy met Dick at three years of age and was so affected by Dick and the events of that day/night that *he never forgot him and in fact started stalking him obsessively*. Dick loves Tim, but he doesn't *need* him. Not like Tim needs Dick (those jokes never stop being funny).
NW 110--“Dick: *thinks* ‘God, I love that kid. Dick: *still thinking* Too much to let him see me like this.’ (quoted from maelithil’s journal) *huggles Dick* My baby and his Blockbuster Issues. “Dick: ‘From now on, it'd be better if you forgot you ever knew me.’ T: *tiny voice while Dick is walking away* ... fat chance.’ (quoted from maelithil’s journal) Tim, Tim, he couldn’t forget Dick if he tried.
Pretty much the only circumstances under which I can see this happening are if Dick thought Tim had died, like in that one issue with the Molotov cocktail and the inferno and Dick was crying. I can see Dick jumping up and hauling Tim to him, and just…holding him there. Because this is Dick, and physical contact is what he does.
And maybe Tim would be hard, and Dick would feel it, and for a moment he wouldn’t know how to react. But I think…he would be so on-edge from almost losing Tim, little brother whom he loves, that he would be okay with crossing that line. Because then Tim would *be there*.
My single favorite Dick/Tim is Bite Your Lip by Te, located at her website.
And last, but most definitely not least, is Slade (comics, for the purpose of this meta)/Nightwing. My current obsession and boy am I obsessed. Going to squee now…
“I mean, the guy who would stop him in his tracks would be a little older, very strong, very dominant, and in some kind of horrific emotional pain, but Dick’s not conscious of any of that. He’s more likely, probably, to have time to develop an intimate relationship with another hero (or civil servant - someone whose work might parallel his own and someone who might be able to understand what he does in the world enough to feel comfortable with him doing it), and, for him with his intense loyalty issues, the best case scenario would be someone he already knows and trusts and feels comfortable with - but ultimately it goes back to that sexual “on” switch for him. Type isn’t as important as passion and opportunity. Because of his psycho-sexual makeup, the other key factor would be a sense that he means something to that other man, that his “surrender” is making that man happy, allowing him to bring pleasure to someone (as he was never allowed to do for Bruce). There’s also a sense, if I may be so bold, of needing to be “caught” and “held down” - this going back to the trauma of losing his parents...being strong and passionate and heroic and virile and loving with a woman is fantastic, he lives for that. But he lost both parents. There is also a part of him that longs to be pinned down and loved a little bit savagely and hurt just enough to reassure him that he’s alive.” (http://www.devingrayson.com/interviews.html first one on the list)
Dude. Slade. (Okay, and Bruce, but Slade!) Little older--lot older, actually, but seriously built for a white-haired old man. And kinda hot, even with the goatee.
"Very strong"--do I even need to elaborate on this? It’s entirely possible that Devin also means mentally/emotionally strong, in which case this still applies. Given that Slade was canonically almost able to make the Green Lantern ring work, or at the very least stop it from working for its wielder, through *sheer force of will* (*fangirls wildly*) in Identity Crisis #3, mental strength is kind of a ‘duh’.
"Very dominant"--once again, is elaboration required? He *screams* top.
"In some kind of horrific emotional pain"--this is the one line where I thought Bruce over Slade. Because Slade just doesn’t *show* emotional pain like Bruce does, despite having it (shot in the eye by his wife, oldest son dead, youngest son fought him, youngest son dead *because he asked his father to kill him, oh dear God the angst*, possessed by youngest son, kills his loyal friend Wintergreen under the influence of said possession, did I miss anything?).
"Develop an intimate relationship with another hero"--*blinks* Will anti-hero count? Because Deathstroke is no ordinary villian.
"Someone whose work might parallel his own and someone who might be able to understand what he does in the world enough to feel comfortable with him doing it"--*considers* This line is the single biggest obstacle to Slade/Nightwing. Because there’s no way ‘mercenary’ and ‘assassin’ parallel ‘vigilante hero’, although post-Blockbuster-death Slade could work it. The man is scarily devious. But, even if he couldn’t seduce Dick over to the Dark Side, he would understand what and why Nightwing exists. And I think he’d feel reasonably comfortable with it.
"The best case scenario would be someone he already knows and trusts and feels comfortable with"--Well, "trusts" is perhaps a little strong. But, as ginzai put it, "Dick feels comfortable enough around him to appear without his mask and to change his clothes. Slashy thoughts aside, even one as comfortable with his body as Dick apparently is would have some sort of unease at being in a room, half naked, with a potential enemy. That he doesn't, and furthermore, that Sir Wilson keeps refusing to take hits on Nightwing and keeps tabs on Dick […]" Yeah. The man is half-naked with Deathstroke staring at him. No sense of shame or discomfort whatsoever, no air of ‘why are you looking at me like that’, just utter ease. It *begs* slash, and indicates at least some level of trust.
"He means something to that other man, that his “surrender” is making that man happy, allowing him to bring pleasure to someone"--Well, let’s see…Deathstroke has halted a contract on a target because he let Dick bid out the contract, refused a contract on Dick, has canonically stated that he respects Dick and doesn’t want to kill him…shall I continue? If Dick doesn’t know by now that Slade cares about him, in some fashion, at least a little bit, he’s just as oblivious as he is regarding Bruce. And who here doesn’t think Dick’s "surrender" would make Slade happy, especially after seeing That Picture? *crickets chirp* And the pleasure thing…that’s what ficcers are here for.
"Needing to be 'caught' and 'held down' […]longs to be pinned down and loved a little bit savagely and hurt just enough to reassure him that he’s alive"--*raised eyebrow* Well. That Slade could certainly manage, perhaps better than Bruce could. There’s a *reason* toonverse people write Slade using restraints, and toonverse Slade seems to be heavily modeled on comicsverse Slade.
Okay, linking to every Slade/Nightwing fic I know, because there just aren’t enough. I am not including any Slade/Robin fic in this list, since the meta was specifically S/N. http://www.fanfiction.net/s/1365177/1/ (comicsverse)
http://www.livejournal.com/users/yami_no_kaiba/45219.html (incorporates toonverse, ATT, and comicsverse)
http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2165719/1/ (toonverse, ATT)
http://www.livejournal.com/community/teentitan_slash/28479.html#cutid1 (toonverse, but not ATT, with art)
http://www.livejournal.com/users/rubynye/132855.html#cutid1 (comicsverse)
If anyone has more, please please please give them to me.
"Personally, I think he’s bisexual. I mean, look at his history - there’s no denying that he likes women. The way I think about him, he likes everyone, he’s sort of a contact junkie - just this incredibly physical (and attractive) person who lives wholly in the corporeal plane and responds with - processes things in - his body before his head or heart. I imagine that he can be hypnotized by a touch the way other people can be stopped dead in their tracks by the sight of money or the promise of true love. I think he likes kicking and kissing in almost equal measure - except kissing edges out ahead because you can do it for longer and it leads to nicer things. It’s difficult to communicate in a comic, but he’s the guy who never stops moving, who touches you a lot when he’s trying to get something across to you, who withholds himself - becoming physically very rigid and distant - when he’s unhappy about something. I’m writing a novel for WB right now that he’s in and I have one scene where Batman has to stop a fight before it gets out of control, and most of the people he can just yell or glare at, but with Dick, he just stands really close behind him and Dick freezes. That’s not supposed to be a sexual thing (though it is kinda hot! ::laughs::), it’s an understanding on Bruce’s part that his physical proximity will speak just as quickly and loudly to Dick as his voice, maybe even be processed faster. And I think a large part of Dick’s rather complicated romantic history has to do with the fact that he can be incredibly focused and intense and intimate in a way most people can’t - when he’s with you, he’s 100% with you - and then he can also get up and just go to the next thing and be 100% there, whether it’s work or, god help you if you’re in love with him, someone else. And he doesn’t mean this at all in the typical “notches in the belt” way, it’s a hunger inside of him, a way of communicating. Think, for a minute, about being an aerialist. Your life depends on latching on to that other person’s wrists - the human touch is literally what saves you."--Devin Grayson
"Dick! Dick being a needy, fuck-me-now bottom. Dick being touch-sexual."--maelithil, referencing a Grayson interview linked above
Those paragraphs up there? Give me so many ideas. Expect fic, and make sure to nag me about it.