Comments | kanican: Enmity Testing (Part I)

kanican

Enmity Testing (Part I)

Oct 28, 2007 18:46

Overview

In the post ' Modeling Enmity', I went over a possible "ball-park" method of looking at enmity in this game which was simple, easy to understand, and plausible for a good number of situations seen in the game. While easier to understand, and I think a better model to base things on than the JP Wiki version of things, it is still not what ( Read more... )

enmity testing!

Comments 26

akroma_ffangel October 30 2007, 01:12:28 UTC

Duplicate hate actions seems to always work the way you noted dispels work. The 2nd provoke shortly after the first always wins hate on say, a HNM pull, or if Tanks are at very similar hate levels during a fight.

kanican October 30 2007, 01:17:14 UTC

The 2 models I described both lead to that same conclusion. It's actually really important since different moves do actually have different decay properties after going through some testing, so the test has to be able to account for all types.

BTW that had to be the fastest first comment I've ever seen... that couldn't have been more than 3 minutes after I released the post to 'public'. I didn't even finish minor editing yet haha.

akroma_ffangel October 30 2007, 02:37:59 UTC

Heh, I just did an update myself and check on friends page. I have a habit of doing this people though. I can't spell so I didn't notice your mistakes :D

akroma_ffangel October 30 2007, 02:41:02 UTC

I think there is hate decay. Play RDM/NIN and stop casting actions and see how far behind on hate you will get. I am positive there is a hate cap, so there is no reason that losing shadows will put you as far behind a co-tank as stoping actions for a mere 30sec will do.

tacrozar October 30 2007, 03:18:37 UTC

If the 2nd caster in test 1 were to wear -X enmity, I wonder at what number X would the bee not look at the 2nd caster. Hmm...

kanican October 30 2007, 03:36:33 UTC

We've done this already, I just haven't posted results because they are too confusing. You can try it if you want, but I promise you it's absolutely nothing like you would expect.

tacrozar October 30 2007, 04:56:32 UTC

Really I'd be interested in reading it. I have no friends who are patient enough to sit through and test this stuff. Most of my experience with wacky hate comes with current enmity gear (aka normal tank gear) which obviously skews the result. I also have +enmity merits so... that won't help at all in testing.

My experience says that there are times when the lower enmity built tank/kiter will have hate but in the long run, the one with the higher enmity will ultimately win out. I think the test where the person who "pulls it" first gets initial hate sort of answers this anecdotal evidence that I have.

tacrozar October 30 2007, 05:06:19 UTC

Actually I thought about a possible way to test decay.

Two people. Same test condition as 2. Assume B's cast landed 2nd. From Test 1, B should have initial hate. So if B loses a shadow, the monster will go to A. What happens if A loses a shadow? two shadow? X shadows? Will it go back to B?

Another thing I've noticed, on a long pull, the monster will lose aggro... eventually. Is that equivalent to "losing initial hate" as shown in test 4?

kanican October 30 2007, 05:41:43 UTC

You have to keep things EXTREMELY simplistic at this point. In those 2 paragraphs there are probably at least 10+ unknowns unaccounted for from losing aggro due to distance changes to the amount of hate a shadow sheds. I couldn't even begin to come up with a quantitative answer to anything. Everything in this post is qualitative, that is I only check who has hate after actions completed ( ... )

anonymous October 30 2007, 10:09:06 UTC

I want to thank you for the effort you've put into testing things like this. Having two tank jobs myself, I always love to have this kind of information.

I was curious about the use of blm/rdm and rdm/nin in the testing of hate. You may have already "debunked" this through some testing but i'll throw it out there anyway. Perhaps its something to add to your list of "no brainers" as something you can say for sure doesn't affect hate. I've heard some people say that main job war provoking generations more hate than a /war provoking. Since I've never had access to a 75 war, I can't even say from experience if this is true or not.

I bring it up because you used rdm/nin and blm/rdm in your comparative enmity testing. You said that blm/rdm was always second to cast. It might be nice to just get this off the list as a possible variable.

I'm also really interested in hearing the results of your test with -1 enmity. I'm sure this is where the real juicy bits of info will be so I look forward to your next blog post. Keep up the good work.-

kanican October 30 2007, 15:24:47 UTC

Yea we alternated this so I would normally cast second, but I do cast first in other tests - the 2nd player regardless of job gets hate in that type of situation. Sub and actual LVL are 2 possible variables. I have not tried anything but 75 characters thusfar. Sub I know doesn't matter.

I have done some +/- enmity work, but right now the results are too confusing to put up so I'm saving it until enough is known about what happens without enmity gear.