The generational gap in fandom

[kangeiko]

I've had some thoughts on age and gender relations in fandom percolating in my head for a while now. I've said a few of these things before in relation to other rants, but these are specifically related to the phenomenon of de-aging and age relations. These thoughts - with a bit of enumeration in the vain hope that it'll make them make logical

Comments

[executrix]

It does nowt for me, but I think that a lot of people--in the slash OR het context--see polarity as an important dynamic in attraction. That is, if we take any scale from 0-100, many people will find the story more interesting if one character is at 25 and the other at 75 than if they're both at 47. This is particularly true if the scale is machismo. (It's really funny if the scale is Height, leading to Vila being perceived as much shorter than Avon, when in fact the actors are the same height.)

Also, some characters just read as older or younger than their years. There are a lot of reasons why Simon is addressed as "son" or described as "boy," and they don't always redound to his credit. In some ways, innocence is good but being not-quite-grownup isn't.

BTW, although I certainly don't believe that Age of Actor = Age of Character, I'm pretty sure that Avon is a few years older than Blake. In fact I think he's probably the oldest person in the Liberator crew and a lot of the dynamics of the Scorpio crew are inter-generational.

[kangeiko]

It does nowt for me, but I think that a lot of people--in the slash OR het context--see polarity as an important dynamic in attraction.

Which is interesting, really, because in many cases, it's not the age difference that's the major difference in the dynamic or (I'd argue) why they were draw to the pairing in the first place. I was interested in the Skinner/Mulder dynamic because of the power imbalance, and because of Skinner's torn loyalties - not because he was older. It just seems to me to be manufacturing differences, which I... don't understand, really.

BTW, although I certainly don't believe that Age of Actor = Age of Character, I'm pretty sure that Avon is a few years older than Blake. In fact I think he's probably the oldest person in the Liberator crew and a lot of the dynamics of the Scorpio crew are inter-generational.

Yeah, I was fangirly and imdb-ed Paul Darrow. He's a good 5 years older than the next oldest on the ship.

[selenak]

All true, though you have that rare phenomenon in B7 where the same character gets put in the two different age positions, depending on who he's getting paired with. There is an old essay somewhere about the majority of B7 slash following two Harlequin novel patterns

[executrix]

hi, selenak, haven't "seen" you in ages.

That essay you mention is S. Thompson's "Romancing the Slash," and it's great, it makes a lot of helpful points about fandom in general.

Awww, I think Paul Darrow can be beautiful (see shimere277's extensive screencap galleries if you don't believe me) and it's more exciting if someone doesn't just look the same all the time.

Although perhaps there's a special fandom thermodynamics where characters expand to fit the role involved...

[selenak]

*waves back*

Oh, I think he can be madly attractive as Avon (and was, too, when playing Sam Vimes on stage a few years ago), but I think part of the compellingness as Avon is that he's not, say, Jude Law type beautiful. Anyone on the Liberator looks as if you could actually meet them on the street. Yay for British tv!

[executrix]

A lot of actors are beautiful but not attractive because they're boring. I never could see the point of Robert Redford (or, later on, Brad Pitt, who probably has a portrait of Redford in storage) for that reason.

But, but, I'm shallow, and I'm sure that one reason I continue to enjoy the handful of Firefly episodes that are all that were given to us, is because of the sheer eye-candy factor.

here from metafandom

[ex_galadhir]

I think that the age gap probably does do things for people in a romantic context in the same way that other kinks do things - in which case I don't think it will go away with greater educational awareness. Even if we're all aware that 'Fragile youth who needs taking care of' is equivalent to 'helpless romantic heroine', some people like the idea regardless.

*g* I wrote a fic in which there was a 10 year age gap between the slash partners, and I did it because there is a 10 year age gap between the actors who played those characters, so it seemed accurate but largely irrelevant to me (there's not a big difference in maturity between a 26 year old and a 36 year old, in my opinion) but people reacted as though I'd done something interesting and vaguely risque.

My FL, who reacted this way, are mostly professional women in their 30s and women in higher education. So I am inclined to think that it's not a function of social awareness, but is probably just an enduring kink like many other slash tropes.

Re: here from metafandom

[kangeiko]

That's a very good point. However, I'd argue that the kink itself is indicative of a societal conditioning. What people find arousing is entirely brought about (I would argue) by what society informs them is desireable - but, then, I follow Butler in thinking that 'gender is performance and performative', so your mileage may vary.

Having a kink for powerplay and ageplay and all the rest of it is, I'd argue, not brought about by some innate urge but, rather, by the power imbalances (so often linked to age differentials) we see in society. The same goes with genderplay and genderfuck fic, which turns those imbalances on their head.

[lost_erizo]

Hi there! Here by way of metafandom

Mostly I just want to say "yes, exactly!"

Some of the most ridiculous examples of this that I've seen are in "Sentinel" fanfic. It doesn't help that the actors physical types and ages actually feed into this (Jim=mid to late 30's, tall, built, short haircut, cop; Blair=shortish, long hair, late 20's, student) but fanfic writers tend to exaggerate those differences even farther. It gets to the point where people start describing Blair, who though younger and shorter is still definitely male and an adult, with words like "delicate," "boyish," "tiny," and Jim is apparently able to sweep him into his arms bride-over-the-threshold style (they guy may only be 5'8" but I doubt he weighs less than 170). The age gap gets exaggerated as well. There's a lot of AU's that play this out by keeping Jim the same age but cutting anywhere from 10-20 years off of Blair (although when they go that far they don't usually put them in a sexual relationship - though they do sometimes and that is a whole other discussion

[kangeiko]

I haven't even seenany Skinner/Mrs Mulder fic - do they even share any screen time?? Because I certainly don't remember any... to each their own, I suppose.

Here via the Daily Snitch

[lanjelin]

You have put words on a phenomenon that's been on my mind for quite a while now! Very interesting and rationally presented. :)

I've found this to be very common in the Harry/Draco parts of the Harry Potter fandom as well, despite the two characters being virtually the same age. We've even found out now that Draco is older than Harry by a few months, which has lead to writers exaggerating physical differences instead. (Before that, writers tended to have Draco being born as late as possible in the year.) I consider this a similar mental shortcut. Ironically, Harry describes Draco as "tall" in HBP, making descriptions of him as short, willowy and fragile completely uncanonical, but there you are.

Interestingly, the situation among some of the very young, or very new writers seem to be the opposite: here Harry is the damsel and Draco the romance novel hero

Re: Here via the Daily Snitch

[r_grayjoy]

I think you're definitely on to something there. I'd noticed these trends, but never quite connected the dots in this way before. I love Harry/Draco as a pairing, but it's written so badly so often, precisely for the (poorly executed) characterizations and plot devices mentioned.

Harry and Draco have long been rivals specifically because they are very nearly equals in a number of ways. It's unfortunate when the struggle and shifting power dynamics between them are downplayed, because that's what makes them a truly interesting pairing to explore. Granted, I tend to prefer Slytherin/Gryffindor pairings in general, because I love to play with that 'opposite but equal' sort of alignment.

Re: Here via the Daily Snitch

[lanjelin]

It's the only pairing I'm interested in in HP, really, which has led to much disappointment for me, haha.

I tend to like the sort of relationships with the dynamics/potential dynamics Harry and Draco have. They could be both rivals and best friends (and/or lovers), and that's what I'd like to see.

(I'm not sure I'd put Slytherin and Gryffindor as opposites though - I'd say Hufflepuff is more of an opposite to Slytherin.)

Re: Here via the Daily Snitch

[kangeiko]

Hee! That's just... amusing. Most of my contact with the HP fandom tends to be through the teachers (reading and writing), or through the teacher/student relationships (reading only), so I wasn't even aware of what was going on in the student shipping camps.

Among the very best writers in fandom though, the willowy, fragile, and passive Draco fanon characterisation has somehow become the accepted canon for him, which is sad for me who isn't very fond of that sort of power imbalance, heh.

*flails* But, but, but - he isn't!! In relation to Harry, is this? What canon are these people reading??