Part 2: Convos with friends
This turned out better than I thought it was going initially. I lost one comment because I wasnt exactly responding to her.
Sheila Bell
Both are horribly tragic. Only one was handled properly from the very beginning.
No, Chris Lane is not Trayvon Martin!
The white conservative media thinks it's found its "Trayvon Martin in reverse, only worse." Are you kidding me?
SALON
22 hours ago
Jenn H he definitely is no trayvon. but i do think there should be outrage! let's kill cuz we are bored! no matter what your skin color is, this should be unacceptable!!
and you know that if this was the other way around, there would be no silence from the sharpton's and jackson's of the world.
Sheila B Of course, there should be outrage over both deaths, but for different reasons. The first because it took 6 weeks for the police to do their damn job. The second because - Is this really how we're raising our kids?!
Jenn H personally i am glad i don't have kids... this country is going to hell in a hand basket...and by the time it really gets bad in the next 40 years or so, i'll be too old or dead to even care
i think the whole trayvon thing has been blown out of proportion. the cops came did their job and determined that it was a case of self defense as according to florida law. but that just wasn't good enough for the sharpton's and jackson's of the world so the cops had to come back and arrest him and set him up for trial and guess what, he was found not guilty, based upon florida's own laws.
now i am in no way advocating what zimmerman did was right or wrong, or what trayvon did was right or wrong either. i think they both screwed up big time.
but here we are going trayvon this and trayvon that... and oh what the injustice of it all.... but what about the injustice of these black kids going on a killing spree? they just killed for the hell of it... there was no self defense claim... not even he stole my girl/ wore the wrong colors/ crossed into the wrong gang territory... no nothing... and yet there is silence
no one cares about black on white, black on pick your color... or black on black crime... that is just accepted... but lord have mercy on us all if a white/hispanic dude kills a black guy
Sheila B Please do your homework and stop relying on shitty "news" organizations that spend more time trying to divide the country in matters of politics, race, and whatever else they can get an emotional response, than actually reporting news. United we Stand. Divided We Fall. Remember that when said same faux news stations tell you how to think.
When its black on black violence, we don't hear about it because its "those damn n--s killing each other again." The problems with the Martin/Zimmerman case has to do with the laws and white on black violence getting brushed under the rug. Had Zimmerman been brought in and tried in the first place, the Sharptons and Jacksons wouldnt feel the need to get involved. Just like they don't feel the need to step in with the Aussie boy. Justice works all too well when its against Blacks.
Martin was demonized because he might have been doing drugs. At his age, I did drugs. Should I have been shot for simply walking down the street? Its those double standards that the Black community is tired of. And it happens. Repeatedly. Last time they got mad (enough for white people to notice) was 20 years ago when Rodney King was beat. Not much has changed in the last 20 years. Not much has changed in 40 years. Or 50 years when Martin Luther King had a Dream.
Sheila B "Encrypted attitudes" about race have a significant effect on the justice system, and stand-your-ground laws give them greater latitude, he adds. "There's a lot of unconscious biases when it comes to race," argues Mr. Armour. "And if you know that, why would you want to create laws that are going to increase the opportunities for unconscious biases to burden and harm a minority, like blacks?"
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2013/0806/Racial-bias-and-stand-your-ground-laws-what-the-data-show
Racial bias and 'stand your ground' laws: what the data showwww.csmonitor.com
Data from states with 'stand your ground' laws raise questions about how notions of self-defense are evolving and whether, under such laws, race-based fears are more likely to influence juries.
Sheila B Gannon had tapped into something powerful, a concept academics call procedural justice. The idea is rooted in research about court outcomes conducted by the Yale Law School professor Tom Tyler in the early 1990s. Tyler found that people care more about how they are treated than about actual legal outcomes. By explaining statutes and court procedures clearly and by allowing parties to present their grievances more freely, Tyler says, courts could significantly increase satisfaction with judges’ rulings, as well as compliance with court orders.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/14/magazine/what-does-it-take-to-stop-crips-and-bloods-from-killing-each-other.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
What Does It Take to Stop Crips and Bloods From Killing Each Other?www.nytimes.com
A plan for peace in gangland.
Jenn H there is nothing that i would like more then for this country to be united, but the zimmerman verdict and the aussie student and even the WWII vet that was beaten and killed in a senseless act of violence plus all of the countries other problems are not the only issues that i was referring to when i said this country was going to hell in a hand basket.
we got cops shooting pet dogs when showing up at peoples doors and killing cats because they are too lazy to go down the street to the vet and drop it off, cops raiding wrong houses, cops setting up live animal traps to catch lost pets for profit. i mean when did this shiz start happening and when did it become ok for it to happen?
here in cali we got parents and students up in arms because now the gov has signed a new law that allows trans gender students to use restroom/ locker facilities of their choice. now while that in itself is not a problem, there is no clarification on how this is gonna work leaving it open to interpretation which is causing issues...
i'm not relying on "shitty news organizations". i do believe that it is fairly common knowledge that he was not arrested right away due to lack of evidence and the self defense claim according to florida law. just to make sure i was not wrong in my remarks i googled it again since i didn't really follow the trial and the ny times, nbc etc all basically said the same thing.
when i said they both screwed up big time i meant just that. zimmerman should have stayed in his car, and trayvon should not have decided to pick a fight and beat up a dude with a gun. and the one part of the trial i did watch they talked about how trayvon was on top of zimmerman beating the crap out of him. neither of them were thinking and only one lived to see another day as sad as that is.
as for demonizing him, i could care less about his tea, his skittles or flunking out of school, or doing whatever drugs he was doing as he was just at the time initially walking down the street. but the media demonized zimmerman too, altering tapes and making him out to be saying racist things he never said... and they are being sued for it.
perhaps we should just agree to just disgaree on this one...
Sheila B In all honesty, I don't think we're off mark on either side. The murders, all of them, are tragic. The animal abuse is horrific, not just domestic animals, but also how wild animal populations are handled. I hadn't heard anything about the transgender students, that should be approached and ironed out before they allow it to go into effect.
With Martin/Zimmerman, the difference was a flawed law allow a man to walk without digging into the REASONS he killed a man. They took it on his word alone. He's the son of a retired judge, but that shouldn't mean that he can walk away from a murder without it being investigated. How lazy is that? Just because the verdict came out the way it did, doesn't necessarily mean it might have had the police done their damn job. Zimmerman had 6 weeks to get his story straight. We'll NEVER know what exactly happened, because the one person that could counter any untruths is dead. But I do agree with you, they BOTH made mistakes that night, however, Zimmerman should have never left his vehicle. I think that one act was the turning point.
If you read more in the CS Monitor link, that bias happens a lot more often, just doesn't hit the national news. This isn't an anomaly. So the lady in the clip from the other day says white people also need to step in, its not because she is playing the victim, its because her voice isn't heard. She very well could have played the Angry Black Woman, but the changing in attitudes comes from other whites stepping up and saying, Hey, this is wrong. Because our voice is heard louder than theirs. Sad, but true.
Jenn H i was watching the VMA's (JT was performing) but the black NBA star that just came out had a lil psa announcement for everyone. it was about how his grandma was worried about him coming out because 1) he was black and 2) he was gay and he would experience the same bigotry and hate that she did growing up in the south and his response was the only way things change is if you stand up for what you believe in.
this isn't just a message for black people, but a message for everyone. that lady in the market sure could of used that pep talk, and that checker needed a swift "gibbs slap" on the back of the head for her idiot actions.
and as for whites stepping up, we as a community need to step up when we see injustice, no matter who it is against. that is the only way this country is going to stay united.
Sheila B And I totally agree with that, but its NOT happening, which is the point.
Jenn H yup!
Jenn H change starts with one person at a time
Sheila B Also within our own communities, though, too. Instead of jumping on the bandwagon of hate and vitriol, gotta be that lone voice that says, Ya know what, this shit aint right.
Jenn H i guess what gets me is that it wasn't that her sister and law came by to help her. it was that she pointed out her white sister and law came out to help her. i feel that just divides us more (and this is just my opinion) when you go hey i need a white person to help me (regardless if it is true or not)... i think it would of been more powerful a message (again my opinion) to just say my sister in law or some random stranger or who ever it might of been came by to help me and just leave race completely out of it. we can't unite as one group when we are constantly pointed out our differences.
Sheila B I don't think we're there yet. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who see race or gender or sexual orientation and just completely write the person off who is trying to make a point. Just like the LGBT community has had a lot of support from straight people, making a point that they are straight, but saying "this shiz aint right" has probably helped that community significantly. So why cant the same be said about a white person saying, "hey I'm white and he/she is black, but this shiz aint right?" Both groups are marginalized, both groups are targeted for injustices (in KS, a gay person can still be fired from their job or kicked out of their home for being gay). Even women couldn't gain the right to vote until men voted for it. Not like we pulled that one magically out of our vaginas.
Jenn H like i said... just my opinion...
Jenn H and seriously gay people can be kicked out of their homes in kansas? what is up with that?
Sheila B If they are renting, the landlord can either deny them in the first place, or upon learning of it, ask them to leave. Its really fucked up.
Jenn H i thought there was some housing act to prevent that
Sheila Bell
Both are horribly tragic. Only one was handled properly from the very beginning.
No, Chris Lane is not Trayvon Martin!
The white conservative media thinks it's found its "Trayvon Martin in reverse, only worse." Are you kidding me?
SALON
22 hours ago
Jenn H he definitely is no trayvon. but i do think there should be outrage! let's kill cuz we are bored! no matter what your skin color is, this should be unacceptable!!
and you know that if this was the other way around, there would be no silence from the sharpton's and jackson's of the world.
Sheila B Of course, there should be outrage over both deaths, but for different reasons. The first because it took 6 weeks for the police to do their damn job. The second because - Is this really how we're raising our kids?!
Jenn H personally i am glad i don't have kids... this country is going to hell in a hand basket...and by the time it really gets bad in the next 40 years or so, i'll be too old or dead to even care
i think the whole trayvon thing has been blown out of proportion. the cops came did their job and determined that it was a case of self defense as according to florida law. but that just wasn't good enough for the sharpton's and jackson's of the world so the cops had to come back and arrest him and set him up for trial and guess what, he was found not guilty, based upon florida's own laws.
now i am in no way advocating what zimmerman did was right or wrong, or what trayvon did was right or wrong either. i think they both screwed up big time.
but here we are going trayvon this and trayvon that... and oh what the injustice of it all.... but what about the injustice of these black kids going on a killing spree? they just killed for the hell of it... there was no self defense claim... not even he stole my girl/ wore the wrong colors/ crossed into the wrong gang territory... no nothing... and yet there is silence
no one cares about black on white, black on pick your color... or black on black crime... that is just accepted... but lord have mercy on us all if a white/hispanic dude kills a black guy
Sheila B Please do your homework and stop relying on shitty "news" organizations that spend more time trying to divide the country in matters of politics, race, and whatever else they can get an emotional response, than actually reporting news. United we Stand. Divided We Fall. Remember that when said same faux news stations tell you how to think.
When its black on black violence, we don't hear about it because its "those damn n--s killing each other again." The problems with the Martin/Zimmerman case has to do with the laws and white on black violence getting brushed under the rug. Had Zimmerman been brought in and tried in the first place, the Sharptons and Jacksons wouldnt feel the need to get involved. Just like they don't feel the need to step in with the Aussie boy. Justice works all too well when its against Blacks.
Martin was demonized because he might have been doing drugs. At his age, I did drugs. Should I have been shot for simply walking down the street? Its those double standards that the Black community is tired of. And it happens. Repeatedly. Last time they got mad (enough for white people to notice) was 20 years ago when Rodney King was beat. Not much has changed in the last 20 years. Not much has changed in 40 years. Or 50 years when Martin Luther King had a Dream.
Sheila B "Encrypted attitudes" about race have a significant effect on the justice system, and stand-your-ground laws give them greater latitude, he adds. "There's a lot of unconscious biases when it comes to race," argues Mr. Armour. "And if you know that, why would you want to create laws that are going to increase the opportunities for unconscious biases to burden and harm a minority, like blacks?"
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2013/0806/Racial-bias-and-stand-your-ground-laws-what-the-data-show
Racial bias and 'stand your ground' laws: what the data showwww.csmonitor.com
Data from states with 'stand your ground' laws raise questions about how notions of self-defense are evolving and whether, under such laws, race-based fears are more likely to influence juries.
Sheila B Gannon had tapped into something powerful, a concept academics call procedural justice. The idea is rooted in research about court outcomes conducted by the Yale Law School professor Tom Tyler in the early 1990s. Tyler found that people care more about how they are treated than about actual legal outcomes. By explaining statutes and court procedures clearly and by allowing parties to present their grievances more freely, Tyler says, courts could significantly increase satisfaction with judges’ rulings, as well as compliance with court orders.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/14/magazine/what-does-it-take-to-stop-crips-and-bloods-from-killing-each-other.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
What Does It Take to Stop Crips and Bloods From Killing Each Other?www.nytimes.com
A plan for peace in gangland.
Jenn H there is nothing that i would like more then for this country to be united, but the zimmerman verdict and the aussie student and even the WWII vet that was beaten and killed in a senseless act of violence plus all of the countries other problems are not the only issues that i was referring to when i said this country was going to hell in a hand basket.
we got cops shooting pet dogs when showing up at peoples doors and killing cats because they are too lazy to go down the street to the vet and drop it off, cops raiding wrong houses, cops setting up live animal traps to catch lost pets for profit. i mean when did this shiz start happening and when did it become ok for it to happen?
here in cali we got parents and students up in arms because now the gov has signed a new law that allows trans gender students to use restroom/ locker facilities of their choice. now while that in itself is not a problem, there is no clarification on how this is gonna work leaving it open to interpretation which is causing issues...
i'm not relying on "shitty news organizations". i do believe that it is fairly common knowledge that he was not arrested right away due to lack of evidence and the self defense claim according to florida law. just to make sure i was not wrong in my remarks i googled it again since i didn't really follow the trial and the ny times, nbc etc all basically said the same thing.
when i said they both screwed up big time i meant just that. zimmerman should have stayed in his car, and trayvon should not have decided to pick a fight and beat up a dude with a gun. and the one part of the trial i did watch they talked about how trayvon was on top of zimmerman beating the crap out of him. neither of them were thinking and only one lived to see another day as sad as that is.
as for demonizing him, i could care less about his tea, his skittles or flunking out of school, or doing whatever drugs he was doing as he was just at the time initially walking down the street. but the media demonized zimmerman too, altering tapes and making him out to be saying racist things he never said... and they are being sued for it.
perhaps we should just agree to just disgaree on this one...
Sheila B In all honesty, I don't think we're off mark on either side. The murders, all of them, are tragic. The animal abuse is horrific, not just domestic animals, but also how wild animal populations are handled. I hadn't heard anything about the transgender students, that should be approached and ironed out before they allow it to go into effect.
With Martin/Zimmerman, the difference was a flawed law allow a man to walk without digging into the REASONS he killed a man. They took it on his word alone. He's the son of a retired judge, but that shouldn't mean that he can walk away from a murder without it being investigated. How lazy is that? Just because the verdict came out the way it did, doesn't necessarily mean it might have had the police done their damn job. Zimmerman had 6 weeks to get his story straight. We'll NEVER know what exactly happened, because the one person that could counter any untruths is dead. But I do agree with you, they BOTH made mistakes that night, however, Zimmerman should have never left his vehicle. I think that one act was the turning point.
If you read more in the CS Monitor link, that bias happens a lot more often, just doesn't hit the national news. This isn't an anomaly. So the lady in the clip from the other day says white people also need to step in, its not because she is playing the victim, its because her voice isn't heard. She very well could have played the Angry Black Woman, but the changing in attitudes comes from other whites stepping up and saying, Hey, this is wrong. Because our voice is heard louder than theirs. Sad, but true.
Jenn H i was watching the VMA's (JT was performing) but the black NBA star that just came out had a lil psa announcement for everyone. it was about how his grandma was worried about him coming out because 1) he was black and 2) he was gay and he would experience the same bigotry and hate that she did growing up in the south and his response was the only way things change is if you stand up for what you believe in.
this isn't just a message for black people, but a message for everyone. that lady in the market sure could of used that pep talk, and that checker needed a swift "gibbs slap" on the back of the head for her idiot actions.
and as for whites stepping up, we as a community need to step up when we see injustice, no matter who it is against. that is the only way this country is going to stay united.
Sheila B And I totally agree with that, but its NOT happening, which is the point.
Jenn H yup!
Jenn H change starts with one person at a time
Sheila B Also within our own communities, though, too. Instead of jumping on the bandwagon of hate and vitriol, gotta be that lone voice that says, Ya know what, this shit aint right.
Jenn H i guess what gets me is that it wasn't that her sister and law came by to help her. it was that she pointed out her white sister and law came out to help her. i feel that just divides us more (and this is just my opinion) when you go hey i need a white person to help me (regardless if it is true or not)... i think it would of been more powerful a message (again my opinion) to just say my sister in law or some random stranger or who ever it might of been came by to help me and just leave race completely out of it. we can't unite as one group when we are constantly pointed out our differences.
Sheila B I don't think we're there yet. Unfortunately, there are a lot of people who see race or gender or sexual orientation and just completely write the person off who is trying to make a point. Just like the LGBT community has had a lot of support from straight people, making a point that they are straight, but saying "this shiz aint right" has probably helped that community significantly. So why cant the same be said about a white person saying, "hey I'm white and he/she is black, but this shiz aint right?" Both groups are marginalized, both groups are targeted for injustices (in KS, a gay person can still be fired from their job or kicked out of their home for being gay). Even women couldn't gain the right to vote until men voted for it. Not like we pulled that one magically out of our vaginas.
Jenn H like i said... just my opinion...
Jenn H and seriously gay people can be kicked out of their homes in kansas? what is up with that?
Sheila B If they are renting, the landlord can either deny them in the first place, or upon learning of it, ask them to leave. Its really fucked up.
Jenn H i thought there was some housing act to prevent that
-
Sheila B http://www.kansas.com/2012/11/07/2558845/opposition-leads-in-early-returns.html
Gay-rights measures fail in Hutch, Salina | Wichita Eaglewww.kansas.com
Voters in Salina and Hutchinson rejected ordinances offering legal protection from discrimination to members of the gay community.