(no subject)
For the last week or so on Facebook, I've been debating Dr. Jay Wile, a young earth flood geologist and author of my high-school science textbooks. Here is my most recent post in that debate.
Dr. Wile, you say the earth is probably about 10,000 years old. You also say that there was a world-wide flood about 4,500 years ago. Could you please address some of the following points?
Many dendrochronologists have published findings of complete chains dating back to prior to 12,000 years ago. This precludes the possibility of a world-wide flood killing all trees.
Sources:
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=16599079
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v312/n5990/abs/312150a0.html
(And before we get into an argument about radio-carbon dating, I'd like to point out that for neither of these studies used radio-carbon dating to date trees, they used the dendrochronology to calibrate the carbon dating, so dendrochronology constitutes independent evidence.)
An analysis of the ratio of oxidizable carbon in coal collected in the North Eastern United States as well as samples from Somolia, show some to be at least 15,000 years old. Other studies have found older samples.
Sources:
http://www.eprida.com/hydro/ecoss/background/applicationofocr.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxidizable_carbon_ratio_dating#References
Through an analysis of the current rate of mutation as well as the genetic differences in the Y chromosome of humans Dr. Spencer Wells, a biology PhD, concludes that the most recent time there could have been a single male ancestor to all humans would be about 60,000 years ago. For there to be only four male humans 4,800 years ago, gene mutation would have to have occurred *much* faster than it currently does.
Source: http://bit.ly/alJTbE
Through analysis of slow-accumulating varnish on surface rocks, Dr. Ronald Dorn has found samples that must have been around for over 280,000 years old.
Source:
http://alliance.la.asu.edu/dorn/GeographyCompass_09.pdf
Samples of permafrost in Alaska taken by the Army Corp of Engineers extend to depths of over 600 meters. For permafrost of that depth to form requires over 350,000 years.
Source: http://www.crrel.usace.army.mil/techpub/CRREL_Reports/reports/CR95_08.pdf
Speaking of ice, a single core sample of ice from Vostok Station, Antarctica has so many layers that it stretches back about 420,000 years. And that's just in a single sample. Incidentally, no ice core sample has every shown any evidence of a world-wide flood *ever* much less one within the last 4,800 years.
Secondary source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_core#Vostok
Primary source: http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/icecore/antarctica/vostok/vostok.html
Based on the size and rate of growth of the Great Barrier Reef, we know that that formation has been growing for at least 600,000 years. A world wide flood precludes the existence much less the size of the reef.
Secondary Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_barrier_reef#Geology_and_geography
Primary Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_barrier_reef#References
Through observation of asteroids whose orbits intersect Earth's orbit and whose mass is large enough to be observable and to leave a crater, the frequency at which asteroids strike the Earth (rather than burning up in the atmosphere) is statistically calculable. (About one strike every 3,200,000 years.) Based on the large number of visible craters, the chance that all of these strikes happened in the last 4,800 years is (pardon the pun), astronomical. Furthermore, the effect of asteroid strikes on these magnitudes on life on Earth would be devastating. Noah's descendants would have been toast.
Sources:
http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?1983AREPS..11..461S&data_type=PDF_HIGH&whole_paper=YES&type=PRINTER&filetype=.pdf
http://www.unb.ca/passc/ImpactDatabase/CIDiameterSort2.htm
*In deference to your strongly held beliefs in the face of scientific consensus, I have not included any radiometric methods in any of these 8 very strong types of evidence. It is worth noting however that all of these are, in fact, consistent with the dates given by radiometric dating despite your insistence that those methods don't work.
Dr. Wile, you say the earth is probably about 10,000 years old. You also say that there was a world-wide flood about 4,500 years ago. Could you please address some of the following points?
Many dendrochronologists have published findings of complete chains dating back to prior to 12,000 years ago. This precludes the possibility of a world-wide flood killing all trees.
Sources:
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=16599079
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v312/n5990/abs/312150a0.html
(And before we get into an argument about radio-carbon dating, I'd like to point out that for neither of these studies used radio-carbon dating to date trees, they used the dendrochronology to calibrate the carbon dating, so dendrochronology constitutes independent evidence.)
An analysis of the ratio of oxidizable carbon in coal collected in the North Eastern United States as well as samples from Somolia, show some to be at least 15,000 years old. Other studies have found older samples.
Sources:
http://www.eprida.com/hydro/ecoss/background/applicationofocr.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxidizable_carbon_ratio_dating#References
Through an analysis of the current rate of mutation as well as the genetic differences in the Y chromosome of humans Dr. Spencer Wells, a biology PhD, concludes that the most recent time there could have been a single male ancestor to all humans would be about 60,000 years ago. For there to be only four male humans 4,800 years ago, gene mutation would have to have occurred *much* faster than it currently does.
Source: http://bit.ly/alJTbE
Through analysis of slow-accumulating varnish on surface rocks, Dr. Ronald Dorn has found samples that must have been around for over 280,000 years old.
Source:
http://alliance.la.asu.edu/dorn/GeographyCompass_09.pdf
Samples of permafrost in Alaska taken by the Army Corp of Engineers extend to depths of over 600 meters. For permafrost of that depth to form requires over 350,000 years.
Source: http://www.crrel.usace.army.mil/techpub/CRREL_Reports/reports/CR95_08.pdf
Speaking of ice, a single core sample of ice from Vostok Station, Antarctica has so many layers that it stretches back about 420,000 years. And that's just in a single sample. Incidentally, no ice core sample has every shown any evidence of a world-wide flood *ever* much less one within the last 4,800 years.
Secondary source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_core#Vostok
Primary source: http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/icecore/antarctica/vostok/vostok.html
Based on the size and rate of growth of the Great Barrier Reef, we know that that formation has been growing for at least 600,000 years. A world wide flood precludes the existence much less the size of the reef.
Secondary Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_barrier_reef#Geology_and_geography
Primary Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_barrier_reef#References
Through observation of asteroids whose orbits intersect Earth's orbit and whose mass is large enough to be observable and to leave a crater, the frequency at which asteroids strike the Earth (rather than burning up in the atmosphere) is statistically calculable. (About one strike every 3,200,000 years.) Based on the large number of visible craters, the chance that all of these strikes happened in the last 4,800 years is (pardon the pun), astronomical. Furthermore, the effect of asteroid strikes on these magnitudes on life on Earth would be devastating. Noah's descendants would have been toast.
Sources:
http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?1983AREPS..11..461S&data_type=PDF_HIGH&whole_paper=YES&type=PRINTER&filetype=.pdf
http://www.unb.ca/passc/ImpactDatabase/CIDiameterSort2.htm
*In deference to your strongly held beliefs in the face of scientific consensus, I have not included any radiometric methods in any of these 8 very strong types of evidence. It is worth noting however that all of these are, in fact, consistent with the dates given by radiometric dating despite your insistence that those methods don't work.