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A number of people responded to my previous post about rec sites created by people who aren't familiar with the show whose fanfic they're recommending. I started to respond to the comments, but each time I got myself tied in knots, and I began to realize that my thinking about this issue is very muddled and tied inextricably with some of my
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This brings me to your post, where i find a similar and, I'd say, equally faulty deduction, namely that readers who do not know the source text are not fannish....I wonder if someone who reads without source text knowledge automatically *is* such an outsider
I think I must not have been clear on this point. I agree with you entirely - I probably didn't emphasize this enough - that one need know nothing of source to be a true fan - in fact I think what I said was "I know very well that someone can be a 'real' fan, can entirely belong in this world and "get it" in every sense of the word, without knowing one iota of the canon for a particular fandom." I *firmly* believe that fannishness is a quality that has nothing whatsoever to do with familiarity with source
What I was describing was my primal (good word) reaction - seeing a rec page with a big disclaimer still stirs up those feelings about outsiders, even though I know intellectually that such a reccer is not necessarily an outsider. It's a lizard-brain kind of thing - not a conscious thought; I was attempting to explain, or really to understand, where my somewhat visceral and not-entirely-rational (over?-)reaction to this type of rec page comes from.
As for the comments to the other post:
1) I don't think there are many fans who consider themselves more knowledgable because they read fanfic - but I do think there are fans who think knowledge of canon is unnecessary and who issue challenges on issues like characterization even though they know nothing of source. But I think intelligent, thoughtful fans are not among these!
2) Again, I think there are plenty of non-canon viewers who would rec great fic, not harlequin - but I have to agree with the poster that the rec sites I've seen by non-canon viewers have tended toward that type of fanfic (again, not individual story recs, but actual full rec pages). This probably says more about non-canon viewers who choose to put up rec pages than it does about non-canon viewers in general, though.
Finally, about your last comment ... can you elaborate? I love the tribal protectivism phrase, but I'm not sure I understand precisely what you mean ... for me the "fandom" is something entirely separate from the "reality" of the show, its producers, the actors, the author, whatever - I can love the guys and the fandom while hating (or more likely, totally ignoring) the actors and producers, etc. I must admit, it enhances my enjoyment of a fandom when the show is one I like - but it's not entirely necessary.
So I *think* I'm answering your question by saying that my protectivism extends only to love for the characters/fandom/pairing .... ??
And as always, thanks for commenting :)
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seriously, though, i thought you'd used the term primal :-)
and now i'm realizing that you just used outrage and i immediately thought of that seamus heaney poem punishment which i adore, where the last lines are: "who would connive / in civilized outrage / yet understand the exact / and tribal, intimate revenge."
anyway, while we're not consorting with enemies or protecting our catholic irish blood here, there is sth to be said about this sense of deep, "tribal" sense of belonging that creates passions that the civilized part of us cannot quite comprehend...
ok...i'm rea lly reaching here..LOL
all i was suggesting toward the end is that there seems to be a spectrum, and even if you're ok woth not collapsing author and show, you're still "protecting" the show and its characters from those that just want to have fun with them and not care about canon...you consider them less worthy fans, it seems to me..not that there's anything wrong with it...that's your striong feeling. i just suggested that there's a family resemblence to fans who feel that any criticism against their source text (producer, author etc.) is making that critic a less worthy fan...
that's what i meant by protective behavior and a sense of ownership via your fannish investment...does that make sense??? it';s mostly unconscious, it's tribal, it's pure affect...
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Especially because I vacillate wildly, and I can see all sides of many of the issues - especially this one.
The thing is, I really really really do see the other side here. As kaiz said below, there are all types of rec sites, and really, I think that's wonderful, fabulous, great. Who am I to tell someone not to post a rec site because she's not familiar with canon? So the intellectual, logical side of me, which usually predominates, is telling me to stop making a fuss, to each her own. And I believe that.
But it's not the whole story. It's interesting, trying with my civilized side to comprehend that other side of me, to which I usually give short shrift - that unconscious, tribal, primal part (nope, I didn't use the word - but I'm glad you did; it fits!) that's yelling mine mine mine, keep your dirty hands off. And though it shames to me to admit it, that primitive little part of me, the part that's still 2 years old, a kind of gollum-esque part, does consider people who don't care about canon "less worthy fans" - they don't belong, keep them out. (Love that poem, btw - must admit to never having heard of Seamus Heaney, but it's a great line: understand the exact and tribal, intimate revenge. Wow.)
I have these horrible visions of that sentence getting quoted wildly out of context! I think all of us have that side, and I think there's value to recognizing it; if you know it's there and know what it looks like then it's less likely that you'll unwittingly let it control your behavior.... And I've found that understanding those urges in myself makes it easier to understand where others are coming from when they act proprietarily or "irrationally." Many of us are deeply emotionally invested in various different ways - it's primal, it is, and when that's threatened it's so easy to lash out ...
Okay, now I'm blithering ... Bottom line: what you said does make sense, and this entire discussion has made me realize just how little I really understand myself!!!!
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the other poem i always teach is one of his early ones, digging.
but the tribal, intimate revenge..yeah! (in fact, i teach punishmnent in conjunction with walcott's a far cry from africa where he describes " who am poisoned with the blood of both,/ Where shall I turn, divided to the vein?" as he describes his being torn between his colonial home and language and the british colonizer and English tongue)
in both, there is that sense of primalness, of something that cannot be accessed intellectually, of something that is "in" us...i mean, i totally understand your misgivings and discomfort even as i don't share it (and am, in fact, one of the interlopers :-)
so, i think there's a time and place to be 2 and then you need to think about it and be civilized and meditate where these emotions are coming from :-)
very, very neat discussion!!!! thanks!
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Exactly!! That's precisely what I was trying to say - and I've found it's easier to do that if you let yourself acknowledge and understand that 2-year-old part. You just can't let it control you, not and live in a civilized society.
You understand exactly what I was trying to express: that my misgivings and discomforts aren't rational or logical (can't be accessed intellectually - exactly). I don't "believe" them, but I feel them. I mean, I, and fandom, would be much worse off if you weren't here, interloper or no; I'd never, ever argue, or want to, and I don't believe, that you're "not a fan." So I keep those misgivings where they belong, mostly under wraps - but that doesn't mean they're not there, and again, understanding them helps me understand and moderate my own behavior, and also understand where others are coming from.
Anyway, I'm so glad you get it - *very* neat discussion, and thank you :-)
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there are many problems with lj, but the thing i really, really like is that we are more than just one slice of ourselves, that we not only try to remain more civil when we indeed disagree but also often realize that our positions may not be that far apart (b/c why else would i have you friended :-)
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Exactly! (I keep quoting you and saying "exactly"! *g*)
As we were having this discussion, it never occurred to me to react defensively to your comments, or dismiss them. I didn't really think about the role that context was playing - it *is* because I know you; that's why it didn't occur to me to take it other than as interested, amicable discussion. But I think you're right - if you were a stranger it would have been much more difficult.
But you're not - because we have each other friended, and so know "more than just one slice" of each other. I've seen your posts and your comments in many, many contexts, on many subjects, and that undoubtedly colored my reaction to your comments here - I was very pleased to see you commented, even before I read it, because I like hearing what you have to say. That is indeed a *wonderful* thing about LJ.
It makes me think, though, that I ought to be careful to be more .... forgiving, maybe, or tolerant when someone I *don't* know posts - they very well could be someone like you whom I simply don't happen to know - yet!
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i know. i was just in a pretty heavy debate in one of elke_tanzer's feminism debates and tried to keep that in mind..and apparently my interlocutor did as well...so even though we started on opposite ends, we ended up finding more common ground than i would have thought possible..i'm not sure if it affected her attitude but for me the fact that she was a fellow fan (and multifannish to boot :-) had a lot to do with it...i tried to be polite though i didn't always suceed...
so, yes..while i have a tendency to be quite bitchy when i read stuff i disagreewith i try to think about how i come across...and i also try to read a bit aroundin someonwe's lj before i post to a stranger...b/c that comment i thought was utterly stupid or offensive might have been ironic, y'know :-)
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