And so...it returns.
I've been thinking Tolkien, and daydreaming Celeborn. I've wanted to write, except there were no words when I tried to, for a long, long time. This isnt much, by any standards. Just a brief poke of the toe into what was a very long-ago and very cherished part of my writerly life. The plot bunnies are there - this is nice to know. :)
My thanks to bejai_oakwise ( Read more... )
My thanks to bejai_oakwise ( Read more... )
Her shame and constant apologizing ( of course one assumes for her husband's absence )instead of her seeking comfort from those who would best understand and sympathize with her past struggles, such as Melian. I kinda see this like any bad split in a family. The one who thinks they are responsible for the tragedy will repeatedly say how sorry they are for causing it. Find it hard to face the relatives. Run away from the self-imposed guilt. Her marriage appears to have failed. She failed to stay with her spouse or failed to keep him with her. She failed as a member of his family and also the one he and she created together. Yes, a tragedy - on her part. She caused it by the choices she had made. And, all her other successes just do not seem to overcome this one thing.
That is why I see her taking Nenya more of a failure than not being able to go on without it. The consequences from her taking that ring saved her from taking the One Ring, but greatly diminished the significance of her own wedding ring even in the eyes of her husband.
*g* Now, I have to apologize for a long response when actually we are in agreement about both Galadriel and Elrond are face a very trying time in Eldamar.
Now, if you are taking plot requests under consideration, how about Celeborn playing a part in Aragorn and Arwen's betrothal? Perhaps, Galadriel thought she was giving Thorongil leave to enter Lorien. She might not have really known who had come knocking until he crossed the borders. Aragorn was very weary then, and Celeborn recalls this condition years later when he greets the Fellowship. How did he lift Aragorn's spirits back then? So many people depict Celeborn as being opposed to Aragorn's courtship. Yet, the few lines of conversation in LOTR that includes these two always show Celeborn as understanding and concerned for Aragorn; always trying to support him, speaking to him as prince to prince. imho
Yep, I definitely have my own take on all things Celeborn. And Galadriel. ];}
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Her marriage appears to have failed. She failed to stay with her spouse or failed to keep him with her. She failed as a member of his family and also the one he and she created together.
I dont think their parting was the result of anybody's failing. Galadriel accepted Nenya (without full knowledge of the side-effects, I believe), and things ran their natural course. Her anger at herself is maybe limited to not being able to stay in Middle Earth until Celeborn was ready to depart too, and it is far more directed at him for not coming with her to Valinor when the War of the Ring was over and their parts seem to have been played. Remember, the reason she stayed in Middle Earth after the First Age is probably for him, because she married him, and then heard of the Valar's ban.
I dont believe their marriage failed, not at any single point of time in the whole story (perhaps, for the tension that Celebrimbor may have generated), or that taking Nenya was a failure on her part. Neither do I think her 'successes' would have worked out without him - for me, she realizes that, and releases an essential component of her vanity there. But Nenya's loss carves out a chunk of what was very essential to her, or became very essential to her, and she couldnt go on like that. Perhaps Celeborn understood that. But, more importantly, maybe he also understood that he couldnt let go of everything and follow her just then. I think he understood why she took Nenya - that it wasnt a failure on her part, just a yielding to a ...yearning, for lack of a better word - but he didnt necessarily have to like it. Imagine if Celebrimbor offered him something that could have recreated Doriath, or the image of it?
I think Celeborn and Galadriel eventually understood each other - their respective trials and weaknesses and triumphs. Weaknesses, most importantly. But there was still anger - at parting, then meeting, then resolution. These are very stubborn elves.
Yes, of course everyone has a different opinion on Galadriel and Celeborn. It is what makes them so entertaining! I love their unpredictability. :)
Erm. Re: Aragorn and Celeborn. In some very early juvenile attempt tried to chart the course of their conversation when the Fellowship was in Lorien (a story called Wisdom Long Obscured) but I fear that I neither understood Aragorn nor Celeborn at that point of time. A rewrite is called for, I think. :) That aside, I find Galadriel's actions in making Arwen more 'accessible' to Aragorn very interesting, and consequently Celeborn's. I've never dealt with that situation in any of my writing before. I think Galadriel (and even Arwen, for that matter) would have known who Aragorn was before entering Lorien and what it meant and what it could lead to, maybe even long before that. Celeborn's conversations with Aragorn in FOTR (in absence of the Group Leader, Gandalf) seem entirely helpful, wise and practical. He doesnt talk hope, he talks routes. He knew that that was what Aragorn needed, in the confusion of where to take the group. So he offered options, good ones, and Aragorn chose.
But the again, there is a long time-gap between Aragorn's first meeting Arwen in Lorien, and the Fellowship being there. Time, measured by mannish senses, anyway. :) I dont think much could change for elvish opinion - note Celeborn's boycott of Khazad-dum during the Second Age. So I think he's in the Aragorn camp. Cautious, and as vested in the outcome as Elrond is, but still more understanding about it. Maybe he understood what it was like to be dazzled, and then eventually fall in love, with someone who seemed larger than life. I mean, he did the same thing himself. :)
Again, we all have our own opinions, particularly when Tolkien has left this story so tantalisingly loose for us to fill it in. :) I'd love to hear your thoughts! And it feels great to geek about LOTR again.
My apologies for an even longer reply. :)
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But, I did not have much else to say on this story. After you explained, I just thought I had read Galadriel's behaviour different than you intended.
On your response to my review of "TEN", though:
Nenya increased, not decreased, her sea-longing. I think that is in UT or the rings section of Silm, but would have to find that passage again to be sure.
Galadriel's knowledge of things outside Lothlorien was by message and the mirror and maybe from the rings, which they could not use to any extent to communicate or be left open to the One. I think it is notable that she did not use the mirror to track the Fellowship. She knew Gandalf was offline from their ring connection, but not what was his condition. She knew he was not with the Fellowship when they crossed the border, but not why.
Her powers have distinct limits. I think those limitations were much greater before she got Nenya. Despite what she learned in Aman and Doriath from Melian.
None knew the truth until Sauron put on the One. But, she did failed to destroy or advocate the destruction of the rings when their true nature was revealed. She took it from Celebrimbor anyway and suggested the others be sent away out of Sauron's immediate reach. I think you are right that its loss left a hole in her.
She stayed after the War of Wrath for love of Celeborn and her pride, saying she was not a guilty Exile, which earned her the personal ban against returning. This was the strong spirited lady who fell in love with Celeborn and he with her. That's who she was until Nenya. imho
For me, Celeborn is the native prince, as noble-bred as Galadriel. His powers are as subtle, as political, and less confined in distance. But, most of the time operating just as invisibly as Galadriel's. Although, his different channels gave him little news of Gandalf too. Many have noted how the Greenwood princes did not have an elven ring to create an enclave of safety, but they did pretty well even with that lack. They had their people and the land and the trees. The story with Galadriel establishing her own realm was changed. imho, it was done in order to reflect a more realistic history. She was not a princess of the Umanyar and could not march in a setup shop on her own anywhere. Even amongst the Noldor in Beleriand. Like Aredhel, she had to stick with her brothers.
You have guessed by now that I do not go with Amroth as their son. He is Amdir's (Malgalad's) son. And Gil-galad is Orodreth's son. And Orodreth is Angrod's son. Both differences are corrections mentioned in UT and PoME.
*G* All of which does nothing to disrupt my enjoyment of your stories. I absolutely love the way you write and want to read more!
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I think both UT and LOTR (somewhere in the Appendices) say that it increased her longing for the sea. But then, the exact nature of what the Rings do to the holders is vaguely hinted at, at best.
I think it is notable that she did not use the mirror to track the Fellowship.
Oh, absolutely. I think that that may have been a very interesting period for her, judgment-wise. Certainly her power had limitations, despite whetever she was born with in Aman and what she learnt from Melian. But she's still only an Elf (considering the Maia forces she was playing with), and compared to them, her 'powers' had to have limits.
she did failed to destroy or advocate the destruction of the rings when their true nature was revealed. She took it from Celebrimbor anyway and suggested the others be sent away out of Sauron's immediate reach.
Again, absolutely correct. We forget all too easily the reason WHY Galadriel came to Middle Earth. It wasnt for a short, pleasant vacation. She meant it to last a long time, under terms of rule that were entirely her own. She didnt find that throughout the First Age. Like you say, she had to stick with either her brothers or her lover. None of whom had direct claims to thrones. I mentioned before, I think - she took Nenya only knowing that it could SOMEHOW magnify her already formidable power. She realized the consequences much later. And they were a large part of the weakness in her nature.
That's who she was until Nenya. imho
I think that that's just where you and I differ. :D!
The story with Galadriel establishing her own realm was changed. imho, it was done in order to reflect a more realistic history. She was not a princess of the Umanyar and could not march in a setup shop on her own anywhere. Even amongst the Noldor in Beleriand. Like Aredhel, she had to stick with her brothers.
Its a really good observation. I completely agree with you on that.
Both differences are corrections mentioned in UT and PoME
I like the part where Amroth is Celeborn and Galadriel's son - even if it wasnt the last version Tolkien may have had for their family. I tend not to take UT or PoME or even LACE as the last word - Tolkien made many, many changes to his stories as they continuously grew...so while I like to remain canon-compliant, I like to take the liberties that I think I want to take. Which is where the fanfic is so wonderful! :D
I've loved chatting with you about this...! Thank you, and thank you for spending the time to do it! :)
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