Sexism And The Victorians

[joreth]

A friend pointed me towards someone's journal who started discussing the concept of sexism in the Vintage Dance scene local to where he lives.  Now, I have no personal exposure to that scene, so I can't really speak on the reality of the situation.  But someone else wrote his own journal entry and veered off a little into the confusing issue of

Comments

[hypnagogie]

I don't think that you should have to dress in sweats. I do think that you (and anyone) should be aware that the things you do affect other people in various ways. I do think that we all have to live in the world, and that means that other people react to us and we react to them, and those reactions aren't always favorable, or the way we would like them to be.

I don't think you will get very far trying to control their reactions, nor do I think it's all that productive to get very pissed off if someone notices you and finds you attractive. That's not saying that you dressed that way *in order to* get their attention, but certain types of clothes *do* get attention, and I think there is a point in what he was saying, in that you should be aware of that fact and be prepared to deal with that attention.

Sure, it would be nice if no one interacted with us in any way except ways that we personally prefer, but that's not the way it is, and expecting other people to instinctively know how we want them to interact with us is unlikely to result in success.

I do agree that anyone should be able to wear whatever they like and not have to deal with forced hit-on situations, but I do not think a compliment necessarily constitutes a come-on, nor do I think a respectful come-on is a problem. If they try and you say no and they keep trying, that is a violation. Noticing - and even commenting - that you look good to them in that outfit is not.

[joreth]

That misses the point. As I've already addressed, of course we should be aware of how our actions affect other people. If you go back to what started the discussion, it was about sexism in a specific venue where the men use their positions of authority to harass young women. The original poster is refusing to allow the men to take any sort of responsibility for their behaviour on the basis of his hypothesis that the women dress attractively so therefore we should accept their ogling and the only way to avoid poor behaviour is to wear sweats. This doesn't address the poor behaviour on the part of these men in the first place.

And since the point of his post was to specifically request that women chime in with what kinds of compliments we prefer, I was not just mouthing off. He asked what kind of compliments we prefer, several of us told him what kind and why, and he responded with "well, too bad, I'm going to compliment you my way, so just deal with it".

"If they try and you say no and they keep trying, that is a violation".

This is me, saying "no" and him continuing to try. This is a violation.

[hypnagogie]

I was referring to your attitudes in general, not so much to him personally.

[joreth]

My attitude in general is usually on the other side of this debate. He asked our opinion, I didn't offer it just for the hell of it. He didn't understand what was so wrong and creepy with 50 year old men overing around the underage girls in corsets - after all, if a woman wears a corset, she must want 50 year old men to leer at her, since that's what 50-year old men do.

[hypnagogie]

You frequently complain about people complimenting your appearance, and in fact did so in this post. I certainly agree that he is wrong on this point, I just also feel that your attitude toward compliments, physical appearance, and interacting with the world is also relevant to the discussion of the issue as a whole. And while he is coming from a pretty offensive place, the issue of clothing being relevant to the reactions of others is a valid point to make. My disagreeing with you doesn't mean I agree with him, I disagree with him also. :)

[joreth]

I never said it was irrelevant, in fact I said there was a spectrum that specifically allowed for some people who do dress to get attention and people who do dress to hide and a wide area in the middle.

My point was that all women do not wear clothing for the purpose of getting attention and that all people (not just women) should be allowed to dress in "appropriate" and comfortable fashions without being made into a sex object. And, since he asked specifically what kind of compliments we prefer, several of us told him and he immediately countered with insults to our sanity and a complete disrespect for our values and life experiences. In this case, the fact that I, personally, have a chip on my shoulder about compliments is not the point. I never once said that a compliment was always bad - I said he should be respectful of women who do *not* like compliments and that women don't "deserve what they get".

[joreth]

Also, his point was that women dress a certain way "in order to" get men's attention so we have no right to then get upset when we get that attention.