What's The Difference Between A Gaslight Victim And A Gaslighter?

[joreth]

I have a question and I need for everyone interested in answering it to assume that I am asking in good faith, not trolling.

Are there any articles that directly compare and contrast the difference between being gaslighted and someone who is *actually* the horrible things that a gaslighter accuses the victim to be

Comments

[ext_2238475]

Good questions. I'm only starting to think about this, so this might not be fully-formed thoughts, but I think the only way to really tell the difference is by looking at the actions of the supposed abusers/victims, as well as the level of self-examination.

Even in this post you keep saying the gaslighter felt out-of-control/isolated/whatnot because of his victim's resistance to his actions. But he never once wondered whether or not he was really the abuser/in the wrong. If you told him he was in the wrong, he said you were hurting him.

By contrast, victims/survivors of abuse are constantly wondering if they're in the wrong. You can see it in the Captain Awkward advice columns -- people go, "Am I a horrible abuser for wanting to go out and see my friends and thereby leave my partner all alone some nights?" (for instance), and the answer is of course a resounding no. But they do ask the question.

So we look at the level of self-examination and at what the actual demands of the people are. The gaslighter's demands were to curtail a person's agency. The victim's demands are to increase a person's agency.

As I said this is still mostly formless, but does some of what I said make sense?

[virginia_fell]

I think I am reading you right, and yes! Yes it makes sense to me.

I have known some people who will treat the "am I being abusive?" question as a sort of... almost a form of self-injury? Rather than a question that can and must be answered as mercilessly-accurately as possible for ethical reasons.

So I've seen a lot of abusive people who're willing to do what looks like asking The Question, but the end goal is to prompt the people around them to stop them from flagellating themselves with the question rather than to get pointed but potentially-uncomfortable feedback.

[joreth]

I've seen that too. It wasn't asked as a form of self-reflection (although I fully believe that THEY fully believed it was), it was more for validation - what guys think the "do I look fat in this?" question is.

From these certain guy's point of view, the "do I look fat in this" question is a trap - the girl is fishing for a compliment and will punish him for answering incorrectly, but giving the compliment can also be the "wrong" answer if she accuses him of lying about it.

So *some* abusive people will go around demanding "am I being a jerk?" because they're trying to get people to tell them that they are not being jerks, and if you say that they are being a jerk, you're punished, but if you say that they're not and they don't believe you, you get punished. No matter what, the Question is not really about trying to become a better person. It's about getting an ego boost, about finding out who your "real friends" are (your advocates), and about finding ways to alter the behaviour while still getting the same outcome, i.e. masking the abuse better & pinning the abuse on the victim.

[joreth]

Yeah, it makes sense. As I said I get it on an intuitive level. It's something that I can "recognize when I see it". But when both abusers and victims turn to the internet to find resources to help them identify and solve their relationship problems, they both find "are you a victim? Read this checklist to find out!" articles, and they BOTH see themselves in those articles.

I'm looking for resources, preferably by qualified scientists who have researched the topic, who actually takes apart each of these criteria and explains how it's valid for a victim but not valid for the abuser because "feelings" are only the starting point letting you know there's a problem, not the end of the discussion.

Something along the lines of "Are You In An Abusive Relationship? Which Role Are You Playing?" with a list of things like 1) You feel lost and alone and out of control; 2) You feel threatened; 3) Your partner seems "off" somehow and then a direct comparison and contrast between how this is *expressed* for someone who is a victim of abusive behaviour and how this is *expressed* by someone doing the gaslighting.

It is my opinion that most of us gaslight to some degree because it's a pervasive tactic in this culture. We grow up hearing our parents tell us that we don't really dislike this particular food or we aren't really bothered by a sibling's teasing, and we think that's a normal way to parent, so we turn around and do it to our own kids. I think gaslighting is so easy to identify on paper but so difficult to identify in real life because it's so subtle and so common. I think most people who gaslight in romantic relationships really and truly do not believe that they are doing anything abusive to their partners.

I see this argument all the time in poly circles about "rules". We've been having this argument for more than 30 years and people still can't see the difference between "you can't have sex with them" and "you can have sex with them but then I can't have sex with you if you do." They honestly can't see the difference between imposing rules on other people and placing boundaries on themselves. They honesty and truly believe that imposing rules on other people IS enforcing boundaries for themselves.

So, I see advice to examine behaviour, but I don't think it's that easy for the person who is doing the abusive behaviour yet genuinely believes is being victimized. The gaslighter in my story honestly, down to his core, believed that his victim was the one curtailing *his* agency because he felt that their resistance to his control was refusing HIS ability to enforce HIS boundaries. I know this because I've had these conversations with him. It all looks very cut and dried on paper, but to the person experiencing all the feelings, it doesn't look that obvious at all.