The Paris Rioting
Well, Sarkozy's in charge. Now is the time for him to actually do something about this riot.
Arrest people, or learn their identities and arrest them later. Then prosecute them ... pile on every felony he can find for them, rush their trials through, and toss them in prison for years for their participation. Build prison camps if necessary to ( Read more... )
Arrest people, or learn their identities and arrest them later. Then prosecute them ... pile on every felony he can find for them, rush their trials through, and toss them in prison for years for their participation. Build prison camps if necessary to ( Read more... )
they would have been next seen ... being dragged off to prison in shackles.
because nothing cows a group that glorifies violence and prison sentences as well as racial dichotomy then people in power throwing the leaders of such groups in jail...
And I would have ordered the police to shoot to kill
wasn't police violence and brutality the entire reason the thing started in the first place?
that isn't an excuse for what happened but I honestly don't think that one can address a problem like rioting people by essentially confirming to them why they are doing what they are doing. Or really I suppose giving them more of an excuse.
And what about bystanders in this situation? Because I doubt no matter how many excellent cops there are that all of them can make perfect clean kills without any ricochets or side fire... and that assumes the people Rioting aren't carrying weapons [in LA?] or are all people on the streets, or in their homes or businesses, to be considered rioters if riots are occurring in the area?
Not that anyone else did any better in the situation. The riots were caused by economic, social, racial, and physical issues that had been developing for decades and will continue to occur probably for decades more. Solutions are few and far between and if anyone really adressed the issue it would mean a mixture of heavy social engineering, economic development, and hard nosed policing that could easily bankrupt a city and would in any event make any leader who tried it very unpopular for one reason or another.
I hate gangsters, and most rioters, and I don't think that people who do this once should be given a chance to do it a second time.
I doubt anyone, except maybe those in the gangs, actually likes them but it is hellishly hard to prosecute groups of people in riots. Our courts and justice system are just not set up for those kinds of logistics and its is difficult to prove exactly.
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The "underlying cause" is Muslim hatred for the French. It has little to do with economics (though the French could improve things a bit by liberalizing their work rules), and everything to do with the preachings of Muslim religious fanatics.
they would have been next seen ... being dragged off to prison in shackles.
because nothing cows a group that glorifies violence and prison sentences as well as racial dichotomy then people in power throwing the leaders of such groups in jail...
No, because this would disrupt the groups behind the riots by depriving them of leadership (what happens when a gang is deprived of its leader? His lieutenants fight for the top spot), and because it would demonstrate that the tactic of rioting produced bad consequences for those who ordered the riots.
And I would have ordered the police to shoot to kill
wasn't police violence and brutality the entire reason the thing started in the first place?
No, that was merely the excuse for the rioting.
that isn't an excuse for what happened but I honestly don't think that one can address a problem like rioting people by essentially confirming to them why they are doing what they are doing. Or really I suppose giving them more of an excuse.
The idea is to apply enough force that what the rioters want is irrelevant, because those who act on it wind up dead or badly wounded. You are looking at things from the viewpoint of compromise, of negotiation -- but they are trying to burn down French cities. If the French make concessions now, there will only be more riots in the future, because the organizations behind the rioting will repeat a tactic which has proved successful.
Also, there is a limited pool of those willing to riot. This pool is reduced every time a rioter is killed or maimed; it is further reduced by the increase in the perceived costs of rioting. Right now, rioting = fun with no personal downside; if rioting = a good chance of dying or winding up in a wheelchair, suddenly only the most committed "youths" will continue to riot.
Always and ever, one must put down a riot, with visibly lethal force or the threat thereof, before one even thinks of negotiating. To do anything else is to play right into the hands of the political leaders behind the riot.
Not that anyone else did any better in the situation. The riots were caused by economic, social, racial, and physical issues that had been developing for decades and will continue to occur probably for decades more.
They are being caused by the unwillingness of the French to simply turn over their country to the Muslims and to Muslim law. The French cannot and will not yield to this in the long run. The alternatives are for the French Republic to get tough, or for it to be swept away and replaced by a regime which will get tough. The French people themselves will demand this, if pushed too far -- the men at the top may be cowards, but I am assuming that the French people still have spines.
I doubt anyone, except maybe those in the gangs, actually likes them but it is hellishly hard to prosecute groups of people in riots. Our courts and justice system are just not set up for those kinds of logistics and its is difficult to prove exactly.
Deliberately round up rioters and throw them in temporary holding camps. Use videotape to prove that person A burned car B. Set up special courts and prison camps. Specifically reject defenses like "minority rage" or "it was a riot" -- prosecute each one as if that individual by himself decided to commit arson, assault and battery, etc. Treat attempts to use defenses like that as "contempt of court" and impose additional sentences on those who try.
It can be done. And it's France's only good alternative to a future in which a fascist regime simply rounds them up and expels, imprisons, or executes them en masse -- or one in which the Muslims really do take over.
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While they have many similarities and many of the same root causes in my opinion they are different enough that it is very difficulty to discuss the two at the same time without segue into each topic such as "Police brutality was used as the 'excuse' to riot in LA which is the same in France" or "the way to address both problems would be tighter police control and economic development plans for those neighborhoods."
I am honestly having trouble figuring out which one your talking about in those post and even what your point is.
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If you're talking about the LA riots, note how swiftly they ceased after the troops were called in.
I am honestly having trouble figuring out which one your talking about in those post and even what your point is.
That the Muslims in France are rioting as part of a strategy of driving out French government and French law; and that the French response should be to crack down on them fast and hard, with severe legal penalties being imposed on captured rioters, so as to deter their recurrence.
This is generally a good way to deal with riots, which is why all these points save the first are also applicable in America.
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Well yes obviously. I just said that. Then I brought up my opinion that I felt it was very similar to the LA Race Riots of 1992. You responded your opinions about that particular riot and then I responded to your specific points about the LA riot. etc.
That the Muslims in France are rioting as part of a strategy of driving out French government and French law; and that the French response should be to crack down on them fast and hard, with severe legal penalties being imposed on captured rioters, so as to deter their recurrence.
that seems a little conspiracy theory to me and a little too much credit being given to teenage men.
For that matter if that is the goal why are there no simialr riots in Germany, Spain, or the UK?
As for your immediate crack down solution: Wasn't that what they did in Algeria? As i recall that did not end well for the French Government...
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I'm not assuming that "teenage men" (whatever that phrase means) are the ones giving the orders here. I'm assuming that the Muslim preachers and neighborhood milita leaders are ultimately responsible. The "teenage men" are just their stooges.
For that matter if that is the goal why are there no simialr riots in Germany, Spain, or the UK?
Because none of those states would let something like this go on for more than a couple of days before cracking down hard on the rioters -- and their masters.
As for your immediate crack down solution: Wasn't that what they did in Algeria? As i recall that did not end well for the French Government...
You actually think that if the French government cracks down on the rioters, it will start a civil war that will end when the French grow war-weary and evacuate France?
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Because none of those states would let something like this go on for more than a couple of days before cracking down hard on the rioters -- and their masters.
I don't know whether you're giving far too much credit to the UK, Spanish and German Governments or too little to the French government. But all those nations have a growing population of Muslims and a growing population of immigrants. London is the most diverse city in the world now. Yet simialr riots are not occurring. Further wouldn't it make tactical sense to have at least smaller riots occurring within those nations to distract them for helping the French government? It is not in any of their interests to see France fall as you're suggesting. Especially since at least two of those mentioned nations have their economies deeply interconnected with a linked currency (the Euro).
You're suggesting these people are starting such a civil war with these riots. I'm not even suggestion the conclusions would be the same but it didn't exactly work in favor of the French when they attempted to sue their army to police citizens or holdings. There is a reason most modern western nations keep their police and military separate.
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They do. Constantly. It's preached from the mosques and boasted about by Muslim thugs on trial.
It's a real simple plan. Violently enforce shari'a on anyone in their neighborhoods, and fight the cops when they show up to arrest the enforcers. Hope for the day when you have a national, or at least local, majority to turn shari'a into the law of the land.
Nothing subtle, but it works, unless fought systematically.
For that matter riots are a rather blunt too to accomplish such a goal and the scale of these riots seem VERY small unless you're talking about two or three generations of riots occurring on a broader and broader scale.
That is exactly the time scale involved.
You're suggesting these people are starting such a civil war with these riots.
A very low level insurgency, yes.
I'm not even suggestion the conclusions would be the same but it didn't exactly work in favor of the French when they attempted to sue their army to police citizens or holdings. There is a reason most modern western nations keep their police and military separate.
The French were winning the Algerian War when the troops were ordered home. France lost interest in holding the colonies.
France is unlikely to lose interest in holding France.
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Unless there are a lot more voters of this mindset moving into the country or a lot more conversions to this way of thinking I don't really see France moving that way. The political trends and voting seem to be going towards a more German standpoint economically more then anything else.
How exactly would these riots create a large scale political control? At best it further enforces the ghetto/enclaves they have already and further isolates them economically.
We have a very different view of French history in regards to Africa.
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Unless there are a lot more voters of this mindset moving into the country or a lot more conversions to this way of thinking I don't really see France moving that way. The political trends and voting seem to be going towards a more German standpoint economically more then anything else.
How exactly would these riots create a large scale political control? At best it further enforces the ghetto/enclaves they have already and further isolates them economically.
We have a very different view of French history in regards to Africa.
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The riots create a standing threat of violence to public order should the natives not appease the Muslim militias. The demand is for shari'a to be accepted as law over at least the Muslims, and their neighborhoods. Success in these goals leads to the creation of ethnic enclaves and groups to which the common law does not apply. Even partial success enables the creation of "no go" zones where the ordinary police dare not venture (in part because if anything violent happens and it leads to a riot, the officers on the scene and their immediate superiors will be politically blamed for it).
This allows the radicals to create barriers to assimilation. Those who try to assimilate find themselves in violation of this or that part of shari'a, and are appropriately disciplined, with no recourse under French law because French law does not really apply to the "no go" zones. Families can exercise traditional rights (including the right to kill) over wives and unmarried children.
The immigrants have a demographic advantage. This ensures that the new generations are not lost to Muslim culture. And, in a few generations, they will outnumber the natives.
Hence, Eurabia.
We have a very different view of French history in regards to Africa.
??? Are you of the belief that the Algerian rebels overpowered the French Army and the loyalist militias, so that France had no choice but to withdraw? And that this means that a similar civil war, fought in France, would lead to a Moslem victory?
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So wait... there are over 400 Million people in the EU. You're saying that somehow There will be a mass immigration movement to overtake or outnumber (shall we say about 3/4 of the population generously giving the Muslim religion around 1/4 of that population at a guesstimate)that?
Eurabia
don't make up terms or use terms that some crack pot politico created. It cheapens you're argument.
??? Are you of the belief that the Algerian rebels overpowered the French Army and the loyalist militias, so that France had no choice but to withdraw? And that this means that a similar civil war, fought in France, would lead to a Moslem victory?
Hardly. That would be ludicrous. What the Algerian War did was make the colony no longer feasible. It just cost the country far too much money to maintain and it was not getting the return from the investment. Further it would have had to contend with the same war later on (a generation maybe two), possibly a more expensive war. why? Because the underlying causes of the war hadn't gone away from the fighting they wouldn't go away without drastic action from the civilian government. Actions that couldn't even be afforded by the the civilian government by the time the 10 year long war had passed. You can have all the military victories you want but if a war costs too much economically or politically its done. Yes it cost the rebels a great deal but it cost the French a lot more psychologically and economically. Military power can accomplish a lot but without a clear civilian strategy or ideally victory it all falls apart.
The French I think are still hesitant to use the kind of force that the brought to bear in Algeria. Because it costs a lot and the returns seem low. Not with out clear assurances it would work well enough. Not while there are more cost effective strategies on the table.
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Oh, no -- I don't think that the Islamofascist plan will work. What will actually happen if the European democracies don't deal with the threat in a liberal, constitutional and judically-fair fashion is that European fascists will come to power on an anti-immigrant platform and proceed to engage in mass arrests, expulsions, or even murder against the Muslims.
The tactic the Islamofascists are trying -- immigrating and then deliberately confronting the natives, harassing them with assaults, rapes, and the murders of those who criticize the immigrant culture -- has rarely been tried against stronger natives, and for a good reason. It's suicide for the immigrant group. The Islamofascists are embarked upon a course likely to provoke an anti-Muslim pogrom. For real.
The reason why they are doing it is that they really believe their own propaganda. They think that they are brave and vital and the Europeans cowardly and ennervated, and that their violence against the Europeans will force them to submit. They also believe that Allah will intervene to save them from any European reaction.
The European elites have helped and are helping to build Islamofascist overconfidence. By bending over backward to please the Muslims, by making excuses for their most blatantly hostile and provocative behavior, by turning the force of law not on the militias or rape gangs but on those European citizens who dare to critizie the Muslim behavior, they are communicating to the Muslims: "We are afraid of you. We will do anything to avoid your wrath. Anything -- just please don't hurt us!"
That is, of course, not what the European elites mean to communicate -- they mean to say "We tolerate you, we aceept you, we will not exploit you as our ancestors did yours." But what the Europeans mean to say is not what they are getting across to the Muslims.
This miscommunication is precisely why the Muslims are maneuvering themselves right into a pogrom.
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