Some Flaws in Creationist Epistimology

Jun 19, 2014 12:51

Creationists reason as if there were a binary choice::  Currently Accepted Scientific Theory vs. Biblical Literalism.  This dichotomy is irrational, and it's at the heart of why nobody who understands science takes Young Earth Creationists very seriously in intellectual terms ( Read more... )

geology, creationism, science

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prester_scott June 20 2014, 14:23:54 UTC
(Moved to its own thread.)

I think the Universe and the evolution of Life both awesome and spectacular. I just don't think it's supernatural.I think this is very well said, Jordan, because it reveals that the real clash is not in epistemology, but metaphysics ( ... )

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The Creation and Multiplicity of Universes jordan179 June 20 2014, 14:41:45 UTC
... there is no evidence that the universe is sapient and capable of creating anything.

A process need not be "sapient" to "create" things in the sense of causing greater order to come into being. The more we study the Universe, the more we discover evolutionary processes operating in it, and all of them are similar. The products of some random, heritable variation are filtered through some sort of selection, imposed by the environment, and then the variation and selection are reiterated. Galaxies, star systems, and life all come about through such processes ( ... )

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Re: The Creation and Multiplicity of Universes prester_scott June 20 2014, 15:04:13 UTC
I am not disputing that evolution happens. As far as I know, YECs (which I am not) actually don't either -- they just don't think that evolution is THE ONLY way things happen.

There is also no evidence that there is any god or gods who are sapient and capable of creating anything

Oh, rubbish. Complete utter hogswallow. This is exactly what I meant in my post about category errors and unacknowledged presuppositions. There is ALL SORTS of evidence of the supernatural. There is no evidence of the supernatural that is provable by natural physical science. Natural things that are claimed to be the results of supernatural causes can be evaluated by science, but about the supernatural causes themselves, natural science must be silent. The category mistake is this: why should (and indeed, how can) the supernatural be evaluated by a scientific method designed to evaluate natural things? Your unstated presupposition is: "Only natural things, which can be evaluated by natural science, exist." It's fine if you want to believe that, but ( ... )

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Re: The Creation and Multiplicity of Universes benschachar_77 June 21 2014, 13:22:14 UTC
A process need not be "sapient" to "create" things in the sense of causing greater order to come into being. The more we study the Universe, the more we discover evolutionary processes operating in it, and all of them are similar. The products of some random, heritable variation are filtered through some sort of selection, imposed by the environment, and then the variation and selection are reiterated. Galaxies, star systems, and life all come about through such processes.

What?
Stars neither eat nor prey. I have no idea what you're talking about.

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Re: The Creation and Multiplicity of Universes kalance June 21 2014, 18:52:33 UTC
And yet, solar systems exist because of an 'evolutionary process'.

As I understand most of the currently accepted scientific theory, the Big Bang resulted in the formation, not of atoms, but of subatomic particles. Just protons and electrons(basic matter). The only element that would have formed from this material would have been hydrogen. The processes of covalent bonding, valence shells, and gravity brought this hydrogen together into clumps that would eventually become stars(much like amino acids clumping into proteins, wouldn't you say?).

The nuclear furnace of fusion turned that hydrogen into helium, lithium, oxygen, all the way up to iron. But that is as far as fusion will take matter. Its not until a star dies, not of hydrogen depletion, but first iron poisoning, that the explosion hyper-compresses the star's remaining elements into heavier metals and gasses like argon and titanium ( ... )

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Re: The Creation and Multiplicity of Universes jordan179 June 21 2014, 19:36:42 UTC
Stars neither eat nor prey. I have no idea what you're talking about.

Evolution through heritable variation by means of natural selection is not limited to life. All one needs is some source of variation (different vectors for gas or dust particles in a nebula) something which preserves variation (gravity clumping the particles together into larger bodies) and something which selects (the gravity of other objects either allowing objects to remain in orbits in system or casting them out of the system) -- and you get evolution. The concept is larger than biology.

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Natural Selection on a Grand Scale jordan179 June 20 2014, 14:42:21 UTC
Every effect must have an antecedent, independent cause that is equal or greater in complexity and power. (I know I'm stating the rule poorly but you get the idea.) The universe is very large and very complex, but it is nevertheless an effect, a phenomenon. So where did it come from? It couldn't "create itself"; not only is that nonsense (an effect can't be its own cause) but also there is no evidence that the universe is sapient and capable of creating anything. Except that we now know almost every one of the founding assumptions here to be untrue ( ... )

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Re: Natural Selection on a Grand Scale prester_scott June 20 2014, 15:26:44 UTC
This is where I must admit you have me up against the limits of my own knowledge and recall, because I am not a philosopher and because my mind isn't what it used to be, so I may not be stating my presuppositions well. Therefore I apologize if my words mislead you on account of us having different definitions for them. However, I still maintain you are missing my point in a fundamental way.

I know all about feedback loops, and they do not illustrate that an effect can cause itself. If the loop is taken as an entire system, it can seem that way. But taken individually, each effect initiates a new cause: E1 is also C2 which brings about E2, E2 is also C3 which brings about E3, etc. There still has to be a C0.

Although it does appear that quantum effects can work backward in time, that isn't what I meant by "antecedent." I mean logically antecedent, which in our day-to-day existence always coincides with temporally antecedent, but conceivably need not. If you don't get what I mean then it will take me some time to explain it ( ... )

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jordan179 June 20 2014, 14:51:31 UTC
For that matter, we now have good reason to assume that the brain operates in an evolutionary fashion -- different (literal) trains of thoughts compete for cerebral processing capabilities and control over the organism as a whole. So the very process that Scholastic and Early Modern philosophers assumed was completely intentional is -- at smaller scales -- an example of natural selection among heritable variation.

Which does not make it unintentional, or its products worthless. Understanding the causation does not change the effect. It merely helps us understand the process better.

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benschachar_77 June 23 2014, 19:06:03 UTC
I think you're misusing the word evolution for chemistry.
Things in the brain do not compete for processing.

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kalance June 24 2014, 05:44:30 UTC
Actually, recent studies have suggested that they do; on both a cellular scale and a cognitive one.

Very rudimentary findings, obviously; and not necessarily indicative of any decent model for how the brain works. But the initial findings are still highly suggestive, if nothing else.

Competing thoughts is more or less how researchers believe that humans, and really any organism, makes every decision. Especially when there is no clear advantage between the options (a piece of chocolate on the left, or an identical piece on the right; which do you eat first?). Neurons begin firing, and whichever has the healthier path wins (survival of the fittest).

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