A Source of Sad Wonder -- The Western Left's Abandonment of Muslim Women

[jordan179]

When I saw that science fiction writer jaylake had posted the following article by Jonathan Lyons, "Islam, Women and the West," essentially dismissing the Western image of Muslim women as oppressed as a mere Orientalist delusion

Comments

[dexeron]

In fact, most evidence seems to say that those burned during the "burning times" (which itself is kind of a misnomer) were just Christians, Jews and some others caught up in a moral panic that came about as the Catholic Church was trying to fight "heresies" within and without: in other words, threats to its power and influence. Paganism had, unfortuantely, been dead for CENTURIES by that point, almost completely wiped out through just basic attirition and societal change - pretty much everyone was just christian by default, with various regional differences based on whatever pagan faiths had been there before christianity took over. However, no one (apart from MAYBE a very small hidden minority) seriously practiced anything we'd call "paganism" until VERY recently, when it was "rediscovered". When you look at the victims of, say, the Inquisition, or the Salem witch trials, the vast VAST majority of these terrible times were just christian women being used either as an example to further reinforce the fear of disobedience, or rich people who the church wanted to rob. Combine that with a moral panic (such as happened in Salem) and it's a perfect recipe for mass murder.

[gothelittle]

The medieval Catholic Church didn't do an awful lot, if any, of the burnings. The Catholic Church's official punishment for heresies was excommunication. The burnings happened in areas where the Church was subordinated (in some cases, oppressed) by the State. It was the State that conducted the executions, and in many cases the Church outright opposed that level of punishment... and were overruled. Not surprising... there is always trouble when the State finds out that it can use the Church to get what it wants.

The only place where the actual religious folk were doing the actual physical punishment was in Salem a few generations later.

[dexeron]

That's actually a really good point, and one need only look at the Spanish Inquisition to support it. It was largely the monarchs behind it (using the church as a tool, more than the church being the driving force) in a power consolidation. Keep in mind that it was Isabella and Ferdinand II who were behind it, the same monarchs who compelted the Reconquista. In many ways, it was far more political than religious, and Jews and Muslims were in many cases the real victims, as opposed to Pagans who, frankly, just didn't exist any more. This is NOT to say that many, MANY Christians weren't caught up in this as well. Henry VIII's great heresy was to come in only a few decades, and Europe would soon see its share of protestants and catholics burning and killing each other, but even then, it really was less a religious question as one of power. Henry's objection to the Pope was NEVER one of doctrine. Luther's reforms were something he used to JUSTIFY his actions, which were always ultimately about POWER and authority: a contest of wills between two monarchs, the pope and himself.

The strangest thing, to my mind, is how much the Inquisition intensified in 1492 - the same year Columbus departed, a year after Henry was born, and right in the middle of the Italian Renaissance! I can't help but find that an odd coincidence as well, and wonder if there was any indirect influence from that quarter in why the monarchs were so afraid of threats to their power. It was a time of great upheaval, after all, and I think this had to have had some impact on the leaders of the times.

[gothelittle]

When I think about the Catholic Church, working absent/against The Government, dealing with Jews... I remember the information that is only now coming to light about the Church's involvement in hiding WW2 era Jews by faking baptism certificates and giving them safe haven in the churches.

It seemed as if the Catholic Church at the time was more supportive of the Nazis, but that's because the few congregations who openly opposed them were slaughtered. In their various secretive and careful ways, however, the Catholics (led by the Pope of the time) saved over 850,000 Jews.

[polaris93]

You're right. I had forgotten that. Thanks. :-)

[gothelittle]

Never a problem. :)

The most fun I ever had pointing that one out was in my college class, "Women In Sociology", when the teacher's job was clearly to paint Christians as anti-woman by talking about the "Christian witch burnings" in Europe.

At the time, I didn't know about the role of the State. But I did know enough to raise my hand and point out that, at that time, the Catholic Church was also persecuting other Christians... the Protestants, my ancestors. So it wasn't quite accurate to claim that Christians were being anti-woman.

The teacher looked completely startled, remained silent for a moment, and then admitted quietly that she hadn't thought of that.

Man, that was an interesting class.

[polaris93]

That was a remarkable teacher. Such graciousness can be rare in college and university environments. :-)

I think the whole "the Church is/was anti-woman" thing is mostly a product of latter-day feminism, which is liberal and thus anti-Christian. Yes, there clearly have been misogynistic thinkers and leaders in the Church, but anti-other things have also been common targets down the ages, depending on the times and outlook. The Church today is much more classical liberal in its outlook than ever before, and open to discussion about them. The "liberals" have gone in exactly the opposite direction, and that includes today's "feminists," who frequently forget to check their sources and at times simply make stuff up, anything as long as it can make the Church or other target look bad. If such women ever get the opportunity, they'll definitely burn leaders and congregations of the Church at the stake. That's what scares me -- that someday the liberals will have such or make opportunities for that and worse.

[cutelildrow]

The greatest evidence that feminism embraces anti-Christianism is how they themselves will hesitate to speak out with any regularity about the oppression of women in Muslim cultures, instead choosing to regularly point how how 'unequal' women still 'are' in the West. They've embraced demonizing the comparitively pro-women Christian and Catholic church... but then place on the pedestal Islam as a delightful and wonderful religious alternative that holds women's rights as one of it's pillars.

I'm never really sure where they get that particular delusion, but pointing out the reality results in responses of "but we have abusers in OUR culture too, and these people who do violence on women there in the name of Islam are just people who misunderstand their religion."

It makes me wonder sometimes if opening their cranium would reveal a brain...or a skull full of maggots. That aren't even alive.

[polaris93]

They are among the people of the lie, those whose lives have become living lies, who lie and lie and lie to themselves and others on a constant basis. That is the nature of the Left. So it's easy to drop one more lie into their pitiful excuses for brains and have them embrace it, especially because they are too ignorant to question what the propagandizers tell them to believe. You're right -- they're among the walking dead.

[marycatelli]

Belief in witchcraft is a common trait, being unknown only in certain hunting and gathering societies and modern 20th centuries ones. And witch hunts were widespread. The biggest ones on record were in the Roman Republic.

There's no reason to think it was anything but a standard-issue witchhunt.