jonghyun brings the boys out

Dec 17, 2011 23:20

I drafted this post in my head whilst studying for exams, so it'll probably sound a bit crazy and disjointed ( Read more... )

type: discussion, type: compilation, group: shinee

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kipling December 18 2011, 19:08:02 UTC
aw yay, I'm glad! :') and yeah, I agree - it seems like an actual half, if not a majority, of SNSD fans are female; I don't know about other girl groups, but it seems about the same. There's definitely a different stigma attached to males liking boy groups, and I feel like a lot of Korea's fears/stigmas about homosexuality are directed toward men - almost like they don't recognise lesbians. Like Amber is dealt with really strangely, in my opinion; she's presented as being "like a guy" but her sexuality never seems to be questioned; she's still asked who her ideal male is, &c. And I would say there's definitely more male fans of "masculine" groups like 2PM and BEAST; Hyunseung of BEAST in particular has a lot of male fans, but I don't really know him well enough to definitively say why? But he's really sweet about acknowledging his male fans as well.

I think all of SHINee are careful in general, but idk I really like that it's really genuine with Jonghyun ; ____ ; like Jonghyun recognises his major fansite owners and I remember someone said something like, "Oh, you must be really pretty for Jonghyun to notice/acknowledge you so much!" and she replied, "No, I'm not pretty at all, it's because of the kindness of his heart" T T

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goldenmelisande December 18 2011, 19:31:13 UTC
Yeah, I honestly think that SNSD's ~pretty girls next door~ appeal makes them equally appealing to women? Since so often they are marketed as being "nerdy" and "dorky" or whatever, and girls want to be as pretty as them but don't feel like... I don't know, threatened? Because they seem genuinely nice and silly and funny in their interviews and appearances. BUT IDK. And yes that makes sense to me! I mean Korean fandom culture doesn't make sense to me on either side of that though - like, why is it okay to have all these "pairings" (in both female and male groups) if homosexuality is not even acknowledged, much less accepted? I just don't understand!! I think that since Korean culture seems to be pretty male-dominated, it makes sense that there's more fear of men being gay since that is interpreted as going against the "alpha male"/masculinity ideal? I don't know though! But with girls it just... doesn't seem to come up as much, that's super interesting (and true) about Amber! It's weird that her masculine image is such a thing and they're always going on and on and on about her getting confused with a guy, but it just... ends there.

Yeah I get that vibe, I always think of that UFO reply (?) that Onew made to a girl who said she was dieting, when he was like "well stay healthy, you are prettiest when you're healthy!" or something, I don't remember exactly but it was so qt ;_; and aww omg that's adorable!!! SO SWEET :3

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kipling December 18 2011, 20:21:51 UTC
I read something about this once actually! Basically, the pairings are okay because they're fake - like homosexuality is basically something that's not real and "for fun" only, which is why there doesn't really seem to be that oh my god my ship reaction from Koreans when idols date. It also contributes to the whole delusion of idols not being actual human beings, but something for entertainment.

But yeah, that's a really good point about masculinity; it's just tied into the culture, along with conservative Confucian/Christian ideals. Korea also doesn't talk about homosexuality, so it's linked with all these myths and such, like Hong Suk-Chun talked about how he was asked if he wanted to be a girl, &c. so it's seen as even worse.

ajkdsf yes! ; ___ ; I love how Jonghyun always tells his fans to go to sleep when they're up when he is, because he keeps crazy hours hahaha :'( idk one of my favourite UFOs is a fan saying like, "It'll rain tomorrow, please bring an umbrella if you're going out~" and he replies, "I'll bring it" so cute T T!!

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counttheplanes December 29 2011, 05:36:08 UTC
omg I hate LJ/firefox/my laptop, my comment is gone >:I

uh anyway BUTTING IN:

Yes, pairings and homosexuality in the general are completely in the realm of fantasy. (I think a lot of idol activities are understood as "for fun" in the same manner, as you said, like their clothes are costumes and the extreme skinship is playacting, which yeah, goes along with the idea that idols' whole lives are a show for fans). I like the way this post on skinship put it:

Why, unlike his Westerner friend, does [a Korean] not see [same sex skinship] as a sign of homosexuality?

This is because homosexuality is so thoroughly underground in Korean society that it is dismissed even at the level of possibility. It is not acceptance or progress but almost bordering on disbelief. An extreme way of putting it would be, there is no way it’s homosexual because there is no such thing. To make it clearer, while this may be slightly problematic, lets return to the bathhouse: a place where naked adults and young children frequently see and touch each other. A Westerner’s mind will definitely, however fleetingly, conjure pedophilia. To a Korean, there is no such fear. Things like homosexuality and pedophilia then become external perversions of something intrinsic to Korean society. Taking it further, homosexuality is the perversion of skinship.

Platonic skinship countered by the participants’ heterosexuality is acceptable and appreciated; being gay is not even worth consideration. The instinctual and natural response cannot link skinship with something as ostracized as homosexuality. Skinship is within the fold of Korean society while homosexuality appears to be outside the fold of Korean possibility. It is the Korean version of the same homophobia which makes a Westerner shy away from skinship.

& thanks for linking to that article! And ia, I think homosexuality might still be mostly understood as gender confusion? In this light, I read an interesting comment somewhere about how Korea is relatively more accepting of transsexualism than they are of homosexuality because it makes more "sense" to them, but I don't know enough to say. It sounds like a tenable theory though.

I love that UFO too ;; Have you seen the newest replies? Apparently a bunch, or all, of these were to just one fan omg lol

2011.12.28 03:09

Fan: The weather is cold ;ㅂ; Right?? Do wear more layers when going out~ To be careful not to catch a coldᄒᄉᄒ!

Jonghyun: Yes, you also have to wear more layers! ㅋ

&

2011.12.28 03:24

Fan: My singer-nim! Jonghyun-oppa! Jonghyun-ah~ The super happiness of my early morning! Jonghyunnie's UFO is overflowing!ㅎㅎ

Jonghyun: Please go ahead and sleep~ (said cutely/nicely)

(practicing translating lol) I'm always dead and dying with him and his fans, and he said everything sf cutely omg ;w;

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kipling December 29 2011, 07:32:11 UTC
Okay, first of all, you are great! I didn't even realise you were working on this even though I saw all your related tweets, haha.

I feel like this is just really hard to explain and that quote does a pretty good job? Like the boundaries of what is acceptable for a male is greatly expanded - things that in Western/non-Asian culture are seen as overtly homosexual and/or require some "no homo" qualifier are perfectly acceptable in Asian culture, precisely because homosexuality itself is outside of the realm of believability. I do think this manifests in Korea in particular because of the closeted culture - although, I know China also has virtually no sex education? I have to think about this some more, haha.

I remember reading something about transsexuality as well and generally, in Asia, transsexuals are pretty well accepted? They can go on and have careers in public media, &c. and I think it's still seen in a very heteronormative way, like if a male becomes a female and goes on to have a relationship with a male, it's seen as a male-female relationship, and thus is (more) acceptable. And I guess it might play into the myth of gay people wanting to be the opposite sex.

I didn't even realise those UFOs were new when I read them, this is what I get for never checking baidu anymore ; u ; just the other day I was like, there haven't been new UFOs in ages, and Jonghyun doesn't really use me2day :( thank you for translating! I like your translations of these a lot more tbh lol :( btw I think you should post the iple entry you translated! It's too cute, it needs to be shared with the world ; u ; although maybe we should find someone who can translate that odd sentence or something, haha. and ugh I wish I understood Korean better! but from the Chinese translation, I can sort of understand that cute tone (?) he uses, ugh he is so sweet :( natural aegyo!

Anyway, yes, I love how doting his fans are, and how equally caring he is to them ; u ; it is the sweetest thing, like it's not quite dependence, but it really sounds like the way an older sister or a mother would sort of casually remind their younger sibling or child to stay warm, &c., little comments that belie this very deep love ; n ; /sentimental

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counttheplanes December 29 2011, 22:33:14 UTC
Oh LOL I was trying to reply to a few different posts yesterday. My angry/sad tweet about having to rewrite comments was about this comment though, and then I took a nap because I was too annoyed to rewrite it ahaha.

Yes, I know, it's hard to kind of detail HOW homosexuality doesn't come to mind. Almost like it's so foreign it's not even taboo. I thought the bathhouse analogy got that idea across, though, as the OP said, it's not a perfect parallel to draw. I also really liked this phrasing: Things like homosexuality and pedophilia then become external perversions of something intrinsic to Korean society. Taking it further, homosexuality is the perversion of skinship. & It is the Korean version of the same homophobia which makes a Westerner shy away from skinship. (I don't think the last paragraph was even relevant to what we were talking about but I liked that sentence so I quoted it anyway LOL.) & what you said was a good summation too; skinship and shipping and the like are allowed because homosexuality is not an option. Once it becomes, like cognitively accessible/culturally relevant?, that behavior will probably have to be defended. :c

Ooh I agree, the repression and closeted culture in Korea definitely has an effect. I really don't know much about China to say anything not... stupid, LOL. Actually wrt sex education, I don't even know that much about Korea; I tried to write a paper on it in college but it was SO DIFFICULT to find English sources, and I definitely am nowhere near fluent enough to read scholarly articles in Korean. But on anecdotal evidence, sex education there sounds like it's on par with, like, the West in the 1960s.

wrt transsexuals being accepted in Asia: Oh right, that attitude probably isn't specific to Korea. It makes me think that gender/masculinity in Asia is really really defined by how you relate to the opposite sex. Like it's okay, as a man, to be androgynous or 'effeminate' as long as you are still dominant over the women around you (be a controlling boyfriend, etc). So it's as if a broad range of gender expression is acceptable as long as the hierarchy in dynamics remain intact? ... I forget how this was related to what you were saying, LOL. idk, gender essentialism and sexuality are linked, it's just that Asia is more open to correcting "mistakes" in the gender essentialism part? (Maybe especially in Korea, where they're really open to modifying/transforming the body what with the widespread and super developed use of plastic surgery.)

(As a side note, going off of the previous conversation about how lesbians are completely completely left out of whatever discourse there is in Korea: is it from the idea that women aren't even assumed to have a sexuality? It really is weird, it's even more in the realm of fantasy than homosexuality between males.)

Oh I'll have to dig through my tweets and find it! & aw, yeah, I really do need to find someone to translate the stuff I'm not sure about. I can't have them full of ????s lol. I think you can get some of the cuteness just by reading it aloud, even if you don't understand the words fully? For example he did that thing where you round out words with ㅇs, like instead of saying goodnight as 잘자 he said 잘장, which uhhh just sounds cuter lol. NATURAL AEGYO FOR REAL ;W; (I really need to sort my stance out on aegyo. I feel like I should find it demeaning and cloying, and the super infantilizing over-the-top aegyo is indeed gross, but otherwise ummm I JUST LOVE CUTE THINGS SO MUCH ;;;;;;;;;;;)

little comments that belie this very deep love
crying I know ;;;;;;;; I really think his fansite noonas legit feel noona-like to him, idc if it's a delusion, especially OIAM. I mean they're so attentive and comfortable and proud of him, and they want to look after him ;~; And he's attentive right back. Everything is so sweet ;;;;; (ignoring all the terrible things for the sake of my sentimentality lol)

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kipling December 30 2011, 02:53:14 UTC
Once it becomes, like cognitively accessible/culturally relevant?, that behavior will probably have to be defended.

yes, this is it exactly! I love when we talk sociology lol, you always use the perfect terms :( I feel like this is exactly what happens now with "no homo" and other such behaviour. The more homosexuality becomes a household/layman's term, the more present it is at the forefront of people's conscious decisions, actions, &c. and it leads to unnecessary denial that stems from a fear from still defining homosexuality as a discrete other. -and I just repeated what you said in one sentence in like, five, haha.

I do remember that quiz show Onew and Taemin were on talked about sex education? And it seems like sex education is mostly conducted by parents, if at all. Sex education in schools isn't necessarily helpful either; in China, it was observed that students didn't pay attention and teachers often didn't even broach/teach the subject - they might provide students with learning material, but neither party really took initiative and most people came out none the wiser. Although, this is based off research I did like, three or four years ago, so things may be a little different now and of course this doesn't necessarily apply to Korea at all; I do think China's one-child policy does affect the health of sex education as a program and I would imagine that Korean sex education would be less unhelpful? (I actually really hate just saying, "Korea has a closeted culture," but I think we both sort of understand, lol?) But I think it would still be very limited, conservative, and heteronormative.

For a moment I completely forgot how this related to Jonghyun; I had to scroll up and reread the entire conversation, hahaha. Okay, yes, your plastic surgery point is actually really insightful and I think I agree. I don't know a lot about transsexuality outside of Southwest Asia (?) and the odd public figure or two in Taiwan. I actually don't know of any transsexuals in Korea?

In re: queer females, that might be true? In general, there's a stigma attached to female displays of sexuality when it's linked to a sense of autonomy and sexual liberation. That is to say, when it's done not for the sake of men or a male audience, like a provocative display in a men's magazine is perfectly acceptable, but if there's no male in the picture (not a literal picture), then it's disgusting and wrong and shameful. I'm speaking more out of experience with Western culture here, though. I think Korea generally will speak out against female artists being unnecessarily exposed - like there's concern with girls' shorts being too short, and underage idols being attached to mature images or actions (drinking, smoking, clubbing, sex, &c.).

I have it all faved! I'll link you later. And oh, I didn't know that, oh god that is so cute ; u ; and yeah, I definitely don't like the forced, feigned cute act, but I think if it's natural, it's not a problem? and Jonghyun doesn't like it (at least with regards to himself); he wouldn't ever intentionally or consciously perform aegyo. But he really is childlike in a lot of ways and I think the familiarity with which he exchanges these messages naturally lend themselves to or prompt a cute way of speaking? This is something else that I think gets lost when translated to English, because it doesn't really exist in English, and it's hard to explain because I know the Chinese equivalent but not the Korean equivalent, but yes, it's just like tacking on a sound that rounds out the speech, it makes it more gentle and sweet but would in no way be an attempt at acting cute unless something affected were added, like a cutesy tone.

yes ; u ; and idk I think when you really have a genuine relationship like that, you don't have issues like, uh, jongduck. It's not at all about ensuring an equal give-and-take, or as she phrased it, a return on a financial investment (ugh good riddance you). You have a younger sibling; you know what I mean, lol. To be honest, I feel like I kind of am this way about him, like ... based on what my friends tell me (crying), and the platonic-ness (what is the word, chastity sounds ridiculous) of it all. sentimental everywhere forever ;w;

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counttheplanes December 29 2011, 05:39:39 UTC
Oh my comment was screened again ;; and it won't let me edit! Okay just pretend the quoted section is in italics lol

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kipling December 29 2011, 06:22:30 UTC
Oh, sorry! :( ugh, I'm just going to turn spam protection off, it clearly doesn't know what's best for me!!

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counttheplanes December 29 2011, 22:35:01 UTC
I think comments might get screened if they include links in them? idk, my last comment went through fine and so did the one before that. Don't turn off spam protection if you don't want to!

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kipling December 30 2011, 02:56:29 UTC
yeah, they do, if the domains aren't whitelisted. It's okay, I don't think a community of this nature will really get spammed, haha? also omg my replies get longer and longer, sorry ; u ; I'm totally in that mood now, hahaha :')

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