A short observation on STARMAKER by Stapledon

[johncwright]

Part of an ongoing conversation. A reader known only by the mysterious initials whswhs has this remark about myths:

"I take a myth to be a story about beings who can act on a cosmic scale; who, rather than being part of nature, are the shapers of nature, with powers that transcend nature, and whose actions in the past made nature what it is and may have

Comments

Re: nature and super-nature

[m_francis]

Well, Augustine always regarded the "six day" narrative as a tale. It is clearly a late-written poem in honor of the Sabbath and not an historico-narrative account. According to Augustine, creation was instantaneous, but elements of the created realized over time.
It is therefore, causally that Scripture has said that earth brought forth the crops and trees, in the sense that it received the power of bringing them forth. In the earth from the beginning, in what I might call "the roots of time," God created what was to be in times to come.
-- On the literal meanings of Genesis, Book V Ch. 4:11

Creation is also looked at as occurring right now, and not at some remote time in the past. That is, anything that exists is sustained in existence at every moment. Creation ought not be looked at from the perspective of a workshop in which a designer makes clever items, but in the manner that thought is creative.

For an analogy, consider the artist painting. The act of "creation" occurs when the artist conceives what the painting will look like when he is done. The daubing of oils is not "creating" the picture, but merely executing it.

Re: nature and super-nature

[whswhs]

I find that separation far too analytically neat to describe my actual experience of creating things. Whether I'm running a roleplaying game, or devising a new dish in the kitchen, or writing a book or an lj comment, I don't first conceive and then execute. Rather, I partially conceive, partially execute, think about what the product looks or tastes like, alter my concept and/or make it more precise, execute, and so on. The full blown concept is not there from the start; it emerges through my engagement with the medium. I will stipulate that some human creators may do things otherwise, and that an omniscient and omnipotent god could do otherwise. On the other hand, the narrative of Genesis does sound as if God were mucking about and seeing what happened, whether he needed to or simply liked doing it that way.

And yes, I do know that technical meaning of "creation." But I am talking precisely about myth, not about technical philosophy. If Augustine believed that the six days were a story, then it is that story I refer to what I talk about mythic figures: the mythic figure of God, not the theological entity.

Re: nature and super-nature

[m_francis]

That the act of creation and the act of execution are distinct does not require that one must follow the other. Obviously, for imperfect, compound beings, there is incompleteness and a sort of trial and error. Matters are different for perfect, simple beings, I suppose. For a being of pure act, the act of conception is the act of execution, since pure act is Existence Itself.

By "full blown" concept, you seem to mean the concept plus the specific details. But the details are altered and corrected precisely because they do not match yet the concept in the mind.
+ + +
Regarding myth, Jan Vansina's Oral Tradition as History is very informative. In one interesting passage, he describes the passage from history to myth of a Navajo ambush of a party of Hopis near Fort Defiance that was recorded on two occasions. One can see the progressive mythologizing of the event.

By the usual criteria, Gen1 and the six/seven day narrative is not myth, but a late, sophisticated poem in honor of the Sabbath. God appears as an abstraction, creates by will alone. The "men and women" are un-named. There are no culture heroes. The mythos starts in Gen2, with the clay and the rib and the named heroes. The story of the naming of the beasts, the flood of all the world, and so on.

Re: nature and super-nature

[suburbanbanshee]

There's a Fort Defiance in Arizona?????

Man, that was confusing. I was sure you were talking about Hopis traveling all the way to Ohio, back in the French and Indian War days.

How myth originates

[m_francis]

Yes. Arizona. The events happened ca. 1853/1856. The accounts were recorded in 1892 of two survivors of the ambush, and then in 1936 after it had passed from living memory into the oral tradition.

Re: nature and super-nature

[marycatelli]

Ah, whswhs, about your experience of creating things -- I realize this is a shock, but:

You aren't God.

Re: nature and super-nature

[whswhs]

Perhaps you skipped over the sentences that said

I will stipulate that some human creators may do things otherwise, and that an omniscient and omnipotent god could do otherwise. On the other hand, the narrative of Genesis does sound as if God were mucking about and seeing what happened, whether he needed to or simply liked doing it that way.

Re: nature and super-nature

[suburbanbanshee]

If you listen to a reading teacher (or a linguist), you will get the impression that letters (or phonemes) have wants and needs. It's easier to teach causal connections if you teach them in terms of feelings and desires; and it's almost impossible to do poetry with protagonists that way.

I'm not saying there's any conflict being telling the truth and using rhetorical/poetical techniques to do it. But getting all hung up on a literary device is something that modern people seem to do all the time; and Genesis is wall-to-wall with Nifty Literary Devices, so it's always messing people up, these days.

Anyway... the point of a deity transcending the world is not a matter of being able to command it (though that's helpful), but of not being tied to the world for mere existence. Most pantheons had the gods spring out from various bits of the world, or be descended from pre-world creator gods in some way. It's very typical to have this vast long family tree of gods, before you reach whatever gods are supposed to be in charge now.

The Hebrew and Christian God's story is more about _becoming_ tied to the world, and tying the world to Himself, than of already being part of it. Not totally without mythic parallels, but not the standard thing, either.

Mealtimes must be interesting in your house

[deiseach]

"Whether I'm running a roleplaying game, or devising a new dish in the kitchen, or writing a book or an lj comment, I don't first conceive and then execute."

So do you often start off with the ingredients for an apple tart and end up with a beef stew? ;-)

Re: Mealtimes must be interesting in your house

[whswhs]

Just because I say I like sea bathing, I don't mean I want to be pickled in brine.

Mmmm - pickles!

[deiseach]

Off on a tangent there, sorry.