I wouldn't expect them to speak English to each other if they share the same native language; I never spoke Japanese to other native English speakers in Japan unless the conversation included Japanese speakers who didn't speak English.
The fact that they're doing this at work rather than just out in public, on the other hand, is a bit rude, no argument there. Especially when combined with a lack of smiling/eye contact -- I hate being served by surly people, though I don't really expect them to fake happiness for minimum wage. Anyway, I think as long as the customers don't get that they're being bitched about, it's fine -- lets the service workers enjoy their jobs a little more, or at least hate their jobs a little less. But it's obviously distracting for someone like you who *can* understand their bitchiness.
I think the part that bothers me is the nasty comments about customers. I feel like I should say something to indicate that it's not cool to trash talk people in front of their faces, in a way that they can't understand. But then, François makes a good point about using MSN to talk behind peoples backs, which I think is a very prevalent behaviour. Is there any difference between using MSN instead of a secret language to obfuscate what you're saying? I guess not, in practice. The same thing is still happening, just in a different form.
So far I've never directly let on that I get the gist of their conversations, though occasionally I chuckle to myself or smile openly when they say something smile or chuckle-worthy. Maybe I'm the rude one for eavesdropping on their conversations and not minding my own business?
I think the solution to this is to find some piece of classical urdu poetry that talks about being mean to others, and to recite it to these women. :D
If only to increase your comfort, letting these women know that you understand what they say might make them tone it down a bit in front of you, if anything. Plus, you'll be all cute with your rudimentary Urdu and they'll start teaching you stuff. You will on all sides!
As for minding your own business, that's their problem, they should have some expectation that some brown people coming to their store speak Urdu. I've spoken French before expecting no one around me to understand me, and I had only myself to blame when it turned out the other way. :]
There's an interesting comment in your response, which is that "I don't really expect them to fake happiness for minimum wage". I've never really understood why being paid poorly is an excuse for being surly. Okay, everyone has their bad days and for sure I'm in a quite a nice position in terms of my job so I'm naturally happy; however, I've had crappy minimum wage jobs in the past and I was polite to the people around me not because of my wage, but because it was the right thing to do. We choose how to behave in our environment, not the other way around. I also think it's important to take a minimum amount of pride in your work, even if it is crappy work, because it's the right thing to do.
Sometimes it feels like we live in a society where no one cares about basic respectful ways of interacting with each other. I find that kind of sad.
I'm not sure I'm on board with the idea that taking pride in your work is the right thing to do, if there is nothing about the work you find worthy of pride -- if you are only doing it for the money, as it were -- but I'm on board with the idea that one should be no more or less polite at any given job. With the exception I suppose that if someone was paying you thousands of dollars just to be polite, you should be even more polite than usual. But the minimum remains the same regardless of (non-horrible) circumstances.
That said Subway is a travesty and their sandwiches are awful.
Meh. It's crass behaviour, and I certainly think less of the people doing it, but it's not like it's behaviour limited to people who speak another language already: that just makes it easier. English speakers develop shorthands, secret gestures, inside references to do the same thing. It's crass but if it helps them get through the day... well, I just hope I don't notice when they're doing it to me. Or if I do that I have a good zinger ready.
As to the general question of people speaking other languages in front of me: I don't think it's inherently disrespectful. Usually I don't even notice it. The guy that yells "speak English!" to old Chinese ladies chatting on the bus is far ruder and more annoying to me -- at least these Urdu-speaking ladies feel some shame if they're hiding the insults.
But yeah, agree about wishing people cared more about being polite and generally decent to each other. I tend to be optimistic: we've got a pretty kind and accepting society here, but by no means are we perfect...
I too agree that we live in a very nice society. One thing all the travelling I've done in the past few years has taught me is that Vancouver is a really awesome city to live in. We're very fortunate to be here. Anyway, my intention wasn't actually to complain. I was more curious to see if the feeling I get in the situation I described is reasonable. Like most people, I think I'm reasonable all the time, but I know that's not actually the case. :)
It's not that being paid poorly should equal surliness, but that working in the service industry is stressful and underpaid and it's not where most people would like to be employed for more than a few years... so I can see how asking someone to pretend they love their job when they don't would just add to the stress. That said, I vastly prefer good customer service, and I try my best to be a model customer, too.
And I agree that if we could all remember that we're not just customers and staff, we're all people who deserve basic respect, the world would be a kinder place.
It feels good when being a model customer results in a stressed out person smiling and having a moment of relief. One thing that I now realize is that whenever I've worked in jobs I didn't enjoy I knew it was temporary and so it was relatively easy to keep positive. I doubt I'd have so much confidence about that if I was living in a foreign country, with different customs, where my qualifications were not honoured, where I didn't really speak the local language particularly fluently, and where I didn't have a social network built up from almost-birth.
Now I feel much more compassion for the ladies at the Subway than when I first posted. Thanks everyone. :)
The fact that they're doing this at work rather than just out in public, on the other hand, is a bit rude, no argument there. Especially when combined with a lack of smiling/eye contact -- I hate being served by surly people, though I don't really expect them to fake happiness for minimum wage. Anyway, I think as long as the customers don't get that they're being bitched about, it's fine -- lets the service workers enjoy their jobs a little more, or at least hate their jobs a little less. But it's obviously distracting for someone like you who *can* understand their bitchiness.
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customers. I feel like I should say something to indicate that it's
not cool to trash talk people in front of their faces, in a way that
they can't understand. But then, François makes a good point about
using MSN to talk behind peoples backs, which I think is a very
prevalent behaviour. Is there any difference between using MSN
instead of a secret language to obfuscate what you're saying? I
guess not, in practice. The same thing is still happening, just in
a different form.
So far I've never directly let on that I get the gist of their
conversations, though occasionally I chuckle to myself or smile
openly when they say something smile or chuckle-worthy. Maybe I'm
the rude one for eavesdropping on their conversations and not
minding my own business?
Reply
If only to increase your comfort, letting these women know that you understand what they say might make them tone it down a bit in front of you, if anything. Plus, you'll be all cute with your rudimentary Urdu and they'll start teaching you stuff. You will on all sides!
As for minding your own business, that's their problem, they should have some expectation that some brown people coming to their store speak Urdu. I've spoken French before expecting no one around me to understand me, and I had only myself to blame when it turned out the other way. :]
Reply
don't really expect them to fake happiness for minimum wage". I've
never really understood why being paid poorly is an excuse for being
surly. Okay, everyone has their bad days and for sure I'm in a
quite a nice position in terms of my job so I'm naturally happy;
however, I've had crappy minimum wage jobs in the past and I was
polite to the people around me not because of my wage, but because
it was the right thing to do. We choose how to behave in our
environment, not the other way around. I also think it's important
to take a minimum amount of pride in your work, even if it is crappy
work, because it's the right thing to do.
Sometimes it feels like we live in a society where no one cares
about basic respectful ways of interacting with each other. I find
that kind of sad.
Reply
I'm not sure I'm on board with the idea that taking pride in your work is the right thing to do, if there is nothing about the work you find worthy of pride -- if you are only doing it for the money, as it were -- but I'm on board with the idea that one should be no more or less polite at any given job. With the exception I suppose that if someone was paying you thousands of dollars just to be polite, you should be even more polite than usual. But the minimum remains the same regardless of (non-horrible) circumstances.
That said Subway is a travesty and their sandwiches are awful.
Reply
Reply
As to the general question of people speaking other languages in front of me: I don't think it's inherently disrespectful. Usually I don't even notice it. The guy that yells "speak English!" to old Chinese ladies chatting on the bus is far ruder and more annoying to me -- at least these Urdu-speaking ladies feel some shame if they're hiding the insults.
But yeah, agree about wishing people cared more about being polite and generally decent to each other. I tend to be optimistic: we've got a pretty kind and accepting society here, but by no means are we perfect...
Reply
travelling I've done in the past few years has taught me is that
Vancouver is a really awesome city to live in. We're very fortunate
to be here. Anyway, my intention wasn't actually to complain. I
was more curious to see if the feeling I get in the situation I
described is reasonable. Like most people, I think I'm reasonable
all the time, but I know that's not actually the case. :)
Reply
And I agree that if we could all remember that we're not just customers and staff, we're all people who deserve basic respect, the world would be a kinder place.
Reply
person smiling and having a moment of relief. One thing that I now
realize is that whenever I've worked in jobs I didn't enjoy I knew
it was temporary and so it was relatively easy to keep positive. I
doubt I'd have so much confidence about that if I was living in a
foreign country, with different customs, where my qualifications
were not honoured, where I didn't really speak the local language
particularly fluently, and where I didn't have a social network
built up from almost-birth.
Now I feel much more compassion for the ladies at the Subway than
when I first posted. Thanks everyone. :)
Reply
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