Moon v. Wiscon Follow-up
I’m still sorting through my feelings on Wiscon rescinding Elizabeth Moon’s Guest of Honor invitation.
It’s not the first time something like this has happened. William Sanders’ GoH invitation to ICFA in 2008 was rescinded after his “sheet head” rejection letter, for example. (Thanks to Nick Mamatas for that historical pointer.)
Basically, I ( Read more... )
As for deletions, that is true, Jim hasn't. But others in his community have.
Since we're on bigotry, your implication seems to be that only people on the Right suffer from it.
Part of what so many people find objectionable is the immediate deployment of words that end with an ist, an ism, or a phobia followed by bigot to describe the character of anyone they disagree with.
That, right there, is the problem. The retalliation has been for folks on the other side to use the terms Jim finds objectionable. Failfandom, fail nazis (I came up with that one and I refuse to back down from it), etc.
Maybe if folks wanted to have a reasonable conversation, they wouldn't start with using the words that end with ist, ism, and phobia.
And usually when I make that statement the other side falls back to charges of derailing and the tone argument.
I can play that game. In fact, I have an entry for that right here.
http://sfmurphy1971.wordpress.com/2010/09/28/the-fallacy-of-the-tone-argument/
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http://xkcd.com/285/
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I'm sorry, did you need screencaps? I didn't bother to get one but she does say in the entry that she deleted the comment and banned me from her blog.
She isn't the only one.
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Her blog is her personal space. If she doesn't want to engage with someone whose comment and blog-post history indicate it's not worth the headache, that's her prerogative. You can still post on your blog about what a horrible fail-fan ism-ist she is, and she can completely ignore you. And I'm free to say, "nope, never buying his books," even if I enjoy military SF and space opera.
(WUT? A pinko leftist fail-fan ism-ist who likes military sf? The hell I say? It's true facts. My tastes run more along the space opera lines a la Bujold and Cherryh, but I liked Drake's Hammer's Slammers (volume 1, anyway; I haven't read the rest.))
Freedom of speech does not guarantee you a platform to speak from, nor any listeners.
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My post wasn't angry, nor did it attack her, or anything else. In fact, it was pretty mild compared to what I am capable of.
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The reason people have said that Moon silenced the discussion in her journal is because she deleted all the comments. Not banning one person or deleting their comments, but all of them. I can sympathize with feeling overwhelmed by commenters, because 500+ is a lot of comments, but surely she had to realize that her essay would generate controversy, and she should have been prepared for the response. [According to her logic, right? I just substituted a few words there.]
Yet you take issue, per your numbered list above, with people then taking their anger and/or hurt to their own blogs, where they then responded because they couldn't respond directly. Saying that people aren't allowed to react in their own journals to something someone else said in theirs ... that's silencing.
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(The comment has been removed)
You don't know me except from my comments or what you've been told so I'll tell you a little bit about myself.
I am a veteran of the Persian Gulf War. I was a security officer for six years after 09-11. On top of that I am a Historian with a specialization in European History.
The prejudice you have experienced? I've seen it. I saw it during the war. I saw it after we got back. In the years after 09-11, I saw it as a security officer among my peers. As a graduate student and a reporter for the campus paper I also saw the Islamic Students on campus struggle with it.
I do not deny your troubles, pain or your experiences. They are real.
Are Moon's comments problematic? You know, I've worked pretty hard in this debate not to give my opinion on them. Are her views commonplace among many Americans? Perhaps that is a place where we can start.
The answer is yes, her views are commonplace. The views she expressed are the mild variation that I have heard. I have heard far worse, far more angry in tone, far more prejudicial in tone.
Do I think you should have to surrender your culture in order to be here in the United States?
I'm not a fan of the assimilation argument. I'm descended from Irish Catholics so I know what it is like to know nothing of your own ethnic heritage, culture or language.
However, I have been to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.
During my time there it was expected, no, demanded, that I respect the local culture. I am neither Islamic, nor Saudi for that matter. I am not sure that I agree with many aspects of Saudi culture. I find their treatment of women to be problematic.
That said, I did my best to tread lightly.
As for the issue at hand, it all revolves around the First Amendment. All of it does. Moon has the right to say what she wants to say. The folks in NYC DO have the Constitutional right to build where ever they want.
Moon does, as a private property owner, have the right to shut down comments at her blog.
Wiscon does have the right, as a convention, to uninvite her.
But if the Original Sin was silencing discussion, then how is uninviting Moon going to fix the problem? I suppose it will make Wiscon a sealed environment without a dissenting view and that is fine too I suppose.
However, to me, it looks like more silencing.
"I don't like what you are saying so I'm going to get rid of you." This notion that Moon can show up on her own dime is also a bit ridiculous. I wouldn't pay a red cent to a convention to univited me and I doubt she'll do that either.
As for my use of terminology, we can talk about that.
Fail Nazi. The German Fascist was certainly interested in making sure everyone thought and acted in unison. They ruthlessly put down anyone who opposed them.
The only thing a Fail Nazi of the Science Fiction Community lacks is an oven and a machine gun. All of the other elements are in place.
1. They have a group ideology, or a Rubric of Right Thinking.
2. They aggressively target anyone who does not conform to the Rubrice.
3. Targeting tactics include internet dogpiles/flamewars at the blogs and forums of those who do not agree.
4. If discussion is closed at the target blog the crime of "silencing" is listed and the discussion spreads out into the blogosphere with the intent of engaging in character assassination. Usually this includes the use of words that end with ist, ism, phobia, phobe and bigot.
5. Should anyone stand to the target's defense, they are instantly assumed to AGREE with the target's views and are also selected for punitive action.
6. In the case of major writers of the field, boycotts are called for. In the case of minor writers and aspirants, I suspect that those individuals are placed on a black list (too bad I don't have proof of that one).
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I am none of those things, but I've been labeled as such because I don't agree with the tactics.
It smells like fascism, groupthink, and it threatens to crush any dissenting voice.
I agree with the disorder, the disease, but I heartily disagree with the cure that has been proposed.
That is where I'm coming from.
I might also add that it looks a little to much like internet bullying. Not a good place to be in the aftermath of Tyler Clementi's death. I doubt anyone is going to drive Elizabeth Moon to jump off a bridge, but the tactics are the same.
Respects,
S. F. Murphy
One of the Undesireables of the Outer Marches
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No.
An adult woman, in a space that is her own, making remarks that she herself can refute or control or dismiss is not even close to what Tyler's situation is. An adult woman, making a blog post where some people WILL agree with her, and many people do, is not even close to a boy questioning his sexuality in a WORLD that is by and large either homophobic or perceived homophobic, to him. So much so he killed himself rather than confront his sexuality.
An adult woman being turned down for a con is NOT the same thing as being spied on, taped engaging in sexual behavior WITHOUT consent, then having it put on the internet to shame the person involved.
I am not saying this as a gay supporter or whatever else. This is not my agenda. What you said is a gross misunderstanding of what these two situations are and you shouldn't just equate some internet "bullying" to something that a person killed himself over.
Don't throw away comments like this. It is disrespectful to the dead and to the circumstances of the dead. Moon's problems matter little.
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This is about "levels" of bullying. Equate a complete invasion of privacy with being called names on a public blog. The results aside. What you feel is justified or not aside. Equate it. Make logical reason of it.
Tell me what about your "throwaway" comment can't be seen as insulting to human life. Right now. Because you seem to carefully word everything you've been writing here.
I want your answer, sir.
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You have just presented a classic example of why the term "Godwinizing" came about. You've just said that a whole bunch of people doing nothing more than arguing on the internet believe that groups of people are non-humans, want to commit genocide, and would do so if only they had the physical means.
It's also the ultimate expression of an argument not worth engaging with.
That being said... Seriously? You honestly believe that Saladin and I and a whole bunch of other random people you don't know are wannabe-genocidal murderers?
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Replace with racist
When you do that, you are equating your opponent with someone who is in favor of lynching, murder, burning crosses, racial segregation and slavery.
We can add terrorism to the list since the Redeemers of the South in the period after the Civil War were prepared to retake their state governments by any means necessary.
How is calling someone a racist without just cause any different than my calling you a Fail Nazi?
Further, some historians consider slavery to be a form of genocidal behavior. Certainly it destroyed or severely mitigated the cultures of the Africans who were brought here to this country against their will.
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I suppose you can choose to redefine racist to = Nazi. You can also choose to redefine other words, if you want. Maybe "circle" shall now mean Martian death ray. But it makes any meaningful conversation pretty difficult.
To those continuing to respond in this thread, my sense is that arguing with Mr. Murphy is pretty much a waste of time.
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:)
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