Moon v. Wiscon Follow-up

[jimhines]

I’m still sorting through my feelings on Wiscon rescinding Elizabeth Moon’s Guest of Honor invitation.

It’s not the first time something like this has happened.  William Sanders’ GoH invitation to ICFA in 2008 was rescinded after his “sheet head” rejection letter, for example.  (Thanks to Nick Mamatas for that historical pointer.)

Basically, I

Comments

[jakobdrud]

I've been baffled about the severity and anger in the comments about Moon's post as well. I didn't particularly agree with her blog post, but then again, I don't expect to agree with everything that's being said on the net. Obviously, some people expected to do just that, and... well I guess 'the spur of the moment' added momentum to the who ruckus.

In a case like this it's so nice to read your moderate and politely phrased contributions to the debate - I hope the world hears you.

[jimhines]

Oh, I can understand the anger. Not first-hand, but her post did piss me off. I also read some very powerful posts which drove home how hurtful some of her claims and remarks were.

I don't think that makes her the devil, and there are other things she's written that I agree with and support. But I definitely think she screwed up this time.

[jakobdrud]

Re: anger. I just had a scary insight: That I may have been become immune to some of the worst rhetoric concerning muslims. E.g. the right-wing party here in Denmark just announced that they want to fight a cultural fight against Islam--not just islamists, but the whole religion. I know they're out of their minds, of course, but sadly they set the bar for the tone of the debate here. And the Prime Minister just refused them in vague terms because he needs their votes... sigh.

So I guess I just didn't find Moon's post so far out there because I've heard MUCH worse. I shall have to meditate on the verbal conditioning I've let myself been subjected to.

Still, I think we agree that anger is not an excuse to abandon civilized dialogue, and there my hat's off to you.

[jimhines]

Thanks. And that's a good point, both that there's much, much worse out there, and that the existence of the worse doesn't mean giving the "not as bad" a free ride.

Moon has said a lot of things I agree with and respect. I don't believe she hates Muslims. But I do think this particular post exposed some prejudices and bigotry that should be challenged.

[trinker]

So I guess I just didn't find Moon's post so far out there because I've heard MUCH worse. I shall have to meditate on the verbal conditioning I've let myself been subjected to.

your moderate and politely phrased contributions to the debate

Juxtaposing those two thoughts - her post was "moderate" and politely phrased, but the sentiments contained within were hardly about dialogue or respect.

[jakobdrud]

...her post was "moderate"...

Please note that I didn't state an opinion on whether Moons post was moderate or the opposite.

"Not so far out there" is a comparison to the Danish People's Party -- and EVERYONE is moderate compared to them. But that doesn't mean I agree with Moon.

[trinker]

"moderately bigoted", yes.

[jakobdrud]

Heh, I guarantee you that compared to the DNP everyone is moderate and few can even contend for the title of bigotted. But I see your point :-)

[trinker]

In the U.S., I pass for a leftist. To my European friends, I'm barely a centrist. (Well, okay, a left-leaning centrist.)

It irks me to have the title "moderate" and "centrist" appropriated for use on "anything less that extreme right wing".

Aiee, the DNP.

[b_writes]

In the wake of 9/11 (and even now) in the US, a lot of people have feared for their lives, and with good reason, over anti-Muslim sentiment. People have been hurt, harassed, and killed over being Muslim (and in the case of at least one Sikh man, being non-white and wearing a turban). I don't know what the case is in your country, of course, but I think another aspect of the anger is/was that that sort of bigotry literally gets people killed.

[jakobdrud]

Thanks for chiming in :-) I can certainly see why some people would become angry because the atmosphere itself is turning/has become (?) anti-Muslim and they just don't want to hear the same *** all over again. (And if I'd read all the comments to Jim's post, I probably wouldn't have wondered all that much about where the anger came from - there are many sources.)

Anti-Muslim sentiments get a lot of media time here in Denmark, and the many cases where Muslims participate in society are underreported. I don't think the atmosphere itself has caused an increase in hate crimes against Muslims - violence is generally lower here than in the US. But the general atmosphere leaves many Muslims feeling unwelcome.

[ginmar]

Problem is, some of the stuff she said about Muslims ought to fall under your point number one, even though it's not numbered: the assumption that Muslims are evil terrorists, that Park 51 is some weird organization designed to steal babies and convert the innocent and so forth. That's not a difference of opinion there. It was straight up bigotry.

[netmouse]

Note to anyone reading this: none of "the assumption that Muslims are evil terrorists, that Park 51 is some weird organization designed to steal babies and convert the innocent" was in what Moon said.

[ginmar]

Oh, gee, look!A Moon apologist, how cute.

[netmouse]

Oh, there was plenty in Moon's post that was problematic and offensive. No need to make up things and misrepresent it to get that point across. When you do that you actually make it easier to dismiss the criticism and believe Moon was right that people (like you) were misreading what she said. In other words, you weaken your own argument and the position of all the other people who are actually raising important issues.

But I should have just linked to The original post. People can decide for themselves whether your inflammatory exaggeration was a worthwhile contribution to the discussion.

[ginmar]

Some of the things she said were straight out of the Protocols of the Elders of...Mecca. That's not a difference of opinion. There's no excuse for being that ignorant about the facts of what Cordoba House actually is.