hey! thanks sarah for the encouragement.i appreciate it. (its good to know i'm not alone)
so tina, let me say, that i think your picture of christianity is a sadly distorted one from the true picture that it is. you arent the only one... infact, i could safely say that several people in my youth group, "christians", have just as distorted a picture. but that is not how christianity is supposed to be. like i said earlier, i'd like to know what kind of company steals money. i asked for proof on that one because i dont believe it. i've never seen it happen ever. all the companies i know, use as much money as possible to go toward the causes. the purpose of those outreaches, is to help the other people. christianity isnt a "religion" or a "dictatorship" because thats how it appears to you and many others. they dont guilt us into giving money. i dont think i've EVER given money to a big chairity before. (5 bucks here and there to our own churches missionaries... and that went right into their hands.) as for the bumper stickers, some are cheesey, yes, but some have more meaning than you possibly understand right now. for instance the jesus fish with "darwin" written on it, with legs... thats a huge blow to christianity. it says "your god doesnt exsist. everything you believe is fake, and we have alot of people believing that!" so when you see that symbol, with a big red circle around it and crossed out on a bumper sticker, thats us fighting back. or the whole "friends dont let friends go to hell" that has huge meaning to us. stupid things like "God's girl" or "God's li'l angel" or whatever the crap you see lol those ones are pretty cheesey and i dont like them. there's another bumper sticker, that i kinda like. it says "dear God, please save me from your children." and i think that that is more true than we give it credit for. so many christians make the mistake of flaunting themselves, that to this day, there is a hugely distorted and negative pic. gotta go back to the foundation. all we are, is people who discovered what jesus did. we asked him to forgive us, so we could be with him for all eternity, and he did! now he's waiting for anyone else! like sarah said, we're no better than anyone else. and any christian who thinks that, has something coming to them! we arent at all.
and the bible IS historically proven. it isnt just twisted around, its like this. (this date is made up, as an example) "oh! this is a coin from cesar agustus, from 200bc. hey! the bible says that cesar agustus was there at 200bc! woah! look at this document (from 200bc)it talks about some sort of nazarine claiming to be the son of God. they beat and floged him, then crucified him. hey! his name was jesus! wow! its all written write here!" (not in the bible, in other historical documents). and did you know that the bible is more acurate than alot of our history texts? because some of those stories werent recorded for like... 100's of years after they happened. the bible people recorded events when and where they happened. on the spot, accuracy. and if you read it. alot more detail than is needed, is provided. (eg. when jesus Goes to preach somewhere, they say what time of day, the name of the spot in the town where he was, how many people their were, what soem of the opposition said, and the names of the people that he healed.) they have taken this and said "this was an actual place, at this time. its recorded that this blinde person saw." not just recorded in the bible. some things are indesputable. that isnt twisted. if they said "hey! some guy who was a jew was crucified! that must be jesus!" then i'd say that that is twisted. but they have his name, his claims, and everything written down historically. its not fiction.
what about those who die? well, thats sad to me too. Grant smart (K.E.C teach that died in the head on collision earlier this year) went to my church and was good frineds with my bro and his friends. when he died i was so sad. it made no sence. he was young, he should've lived. God had huge plans for him. but God still gives us free will. God gave the other driver that free will weather to switch lanes or not. if God would've saved Grant, then he wouldn't have given the other guy free will. what about cancer?? there are diseases in a fallen world. in those cases, i dont think God will let someone die unless he has a plan for that situation. we are no better or superior to someone who's family member, DIDNT get the answer they wanted. God still answers, but he answered "no" to some people and "yes" to others. to others still, he'll answer "wait" all these are still answeres. but we need to just trust God sometimes to give us the faith and the strength to survive some of his answers. maybe the cancer is an unfortunate consequence of free will. the free will that God gave adam and eve in the garden. ever since that day, we've slowly built up mutations (we learned that in bio.) but my point is, no, we are not superior cause God answered our prayers. God answered their prayers too. he wasnt done with my brother yet. thats why he lived.
What makes it a miracle then? What's the point of praying or saying "god answered our prayers it's a miracle" when other people pray just as hard and it DOESN'T happen? How come having amazing things happen to you or feeling very spiritual and amazed at the world proves the CHRISTIAN god?
As for "who would be a christian, all we get is jokes made about us, stereotyped, etc etc..." (you say that this is more applicable to the middle east...well, yeah. So? Jews have been the scapegoat for people for thousands of years, far more so than christians have been. Who would be a Jew by choice? Again, reversal of your statement. And christians in north america are so affluent that the christian belief influences LAWS here!)
I don't believe you when you say you would've turned out a christian if you were raised somewhere in asia with a strongly hindu family. Sorry. I really, really don't.
Your arguments are falling flat here - I'd be interested to see you research how other religions have proven their biblical texts, because they will tell you, too, that theirs is the one and only correct religion. It's geographical, really. And of COURSE people from other religions do change, that's a given, but statistically you are far more likely to be part of whatever belief is the common one wherever you live. Don't you think that says something about the validity of any religion?
Also - why is so much of the old testament ignored by christians? I'm really very curious about this - do you not believe it was the word of god? I've been told before that it's considered more of a "historical" thing...but you believe genesis...and you believe passages condemning homosexuality...but it's mentioned about a zillion times that women can't cut their hair or that eating shellfish is evil, but those are written off as "cultural" things. Was god just a little crazy back then, and then he smartened up after jesus? I can understand taking the bible as a giant metaphor, but believing it fundamentally makes no sense to me. And I believe that a perfect god would NOT CARE if people worshipped him, and if he loved them indefinitely anyway, he wouldn't force them to suffer for eternity if they didn't pray to him. That seems far too human-like and egotistic. By the way - someone can admit that they're a sinner without believing in the christian god. I certainly don't believe I'm perfect or that I don't ever do bad things. I'm not arrogant like that. I still don't believe in the bible. I have no reason to!
D'you know how many times the story of Jesus has been told in history, with a different name for the hero? Virgin birth, rising from the dead, etc etc...it's an ancient story. I believe that one day we will study the Christian Myth in history class or english class just like we study the ancient greek and roman myths today. The romans believed in their stories of world creation or in zeus and hercules too, but as the world evolved, the common religion changed. Had you lived in that time, you would have believed just as vehemently in their gods.
i'm prettymuch done arguing over this because i can see we arent going to reach an agreement. all i'm going to say is that i really love you tina. i love you and everything i say is out of love, and not pride. the old testament is old law. they had to make sacrifices for their own sins. but jesus came as the ultimate sacrifice to die for all sins. Hebrews 10:10 "And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." (new testament) jesus was like the lamb that the old testament people would sacrifice to ask God to forgive their sins. he was the ultimate sacrifice. so that is a huge difference. we dont do sacrifices for our sins, we ask for Jesus to be our sacrifice (hence easter and good friday). and as for food (jews dont eat certain meats) the new testament says that that law is abolished too. Romans 14:20 "Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble" all food is clean... and the last part there, is why many christians dont drink. if it causes someone else to stumble, then it is sin. but jesus drank wine. wine is not like...sinful. but if, by drinking it, you could cause others to fall, then its a sin. (a random tid bit for you, since it was in the verse). alot of old testament is very true and we believe it. only what is said otherwise in the new testament, do we say is "old law" like... 10 commandments, praising god, fasting... all of those are old testament. we still do them now.
1) it is not mentioned a zillion times that women shouldnt cut their hair. its mentioned once that women shouldnt BRAID their hair (and thats new testament)
2)it isnt shell fish, its pork and any animal with cloven hooves. (please dont take this offensively but do not tell me what is in my bible when you havent taken the time to look for it, and i have. i realize word of mouth is probably where that came from, but just for future reference. gimme a quotation if you feel the need to, and i'll be happy to help explain it.)
3) Hebrews 13:8 "jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." jesus god and holy spirit (the trinity) kindof like an egg. three parts (shell yolk and whites) but all one egg. anyway, God never changes. old testament, new testament. same God. same love, same wrath, same power, same beauty, same compassion. (he sure is containing that wrath though)
4) i believe that a perfect god deserves and should be given worship and praise. if you dont give it, god doesnt get wrathful, he's just sad because you dont know him. if you know how huge god is, you cannot help but worship him.
that seemed like an important thing to clear up. but i'm done debating. i'm sorry but thats crap about other stories of jesus. tell me ONE. cause i dont know of any. other religions use jesus in them, but its the same jesus. anyway, i wont even refute that statement. i feel i've already explained the miracle one. its a miracle cause God said "yes". and if you dont believe i would've turned out christian, that is your problem.
the fact that the bible is historically accurate is non disputable. if you go to any secular university and talk to a historian he will tell you likewise. he may not agree with the theology, but historically it is 100%accurate. you can disagree until your blue in the face. its a fact. i'm done defending that.
anyway i love you tonnes, and maybe in your head, even if you dont listen to them, try not to get angry at a christian when they are witnessing to you. cause how i feel that should be taken is "wow! (i dont believe them at all) but the fact that they love me enough to take the risk of telling me this, says alot about what kind of friend they are!" i would hope that those brackets wouldnt be in the thought process but if they are, they are. it isnt a "na na na na na na! i'm going to heaven!" (that would be the jehova's witness. if you are insulted by christianity, just wait till you check out what THEY believe...) its saying "i love you so much that i want to share this amaizing paradise called heaven with you! its so cool! no tears, no pain, no sin, all Good! its a party 24/7, but a good safe party. it wont be dull, i can promise you that. heaven will be a blast! and to top it off, one on one conversations with the creator of the universe! i want to share that with you, because i love you!"
Read that for strong similarities between the story of Jesus and another famous hero story, the story of Odysseus by Homer.
You call the entire world being flooded a few thousand years ago, a man building an ark and finding two of EVERY species to repopulate the world with historically accurate? You call the world being created in seven days historically accurate? You call absolutely no evolution (despite vast amounts of scientific evidence for it - where d'you think cats and dogs came from? They're evolved from panthers/cheetahs/other wild cats and wolves, much like many people believe humans evolved from monkies...which still exist, yes. Panthers and wolves still exist, too.) historically accurate?
But yeah...let's stop this. I'm getting frustrated and I'd rather not go on about it.
disclaimer: This is not meant as an argument... just so you know... and in fact I do believe that evolution is possible - even though I'm a christian. Let's assume for a moment that evolution did happen. I just wanted to let you know that actually humans did not come from monkeys, scientifically speaking, humans and monkeys would have come from the same ancestor, which was neither a human OR a monkey. Just wanted to be clear.
so tina, let me say, that i think your picture of christianity is a sadly distorted one from the true picture that it is. you arent the only one... infact, i could safely say that several people in my youth group, "christians", have just as distorted a picture. but that is not how christianity is supposed to be. like i said earlier, i'd like to know what kind of company steals money. i asked for proof on that one because i dont believe it. i've never seen it happen ever. all the companies i know, use as much money as possible to go toward the causes. the purpose of those outreaches, is to help the other people. christianity isnt a "religion" or a "dictatorship" because thats how it appears to you and many others. they dont guilt us into giving money. i dont think i've EVER given money to a big chairity before. (5 bucks here and there to our own churches missionaries... and that went right into their hands.) as for the bumper stickers, some are cheesey, yes, but some have more meaning than you possibly understand right now. for instance the jesus fish with "darwin" written on it, with legs... thats a huge blow to christianity. it says "your god doesnt exsist. everything you believe is fake, and we have alot of people believing that!" so when you see that symbol, with a big red circle around it and crossed out on a bumper sticker, thats us fighting back. or the whole "friends dont let friends go to hell" that has huge meaning to us. stupid things like "God's girl" or "God's li'l angel" or whatever the crap you see lol those ones are pretty cheesey and i dont like them. there's another bumper sticker, that i kinda like. it says "dear God, please save me from your children." and i think that that is more true than we give it credit for. so many christians make the mistake of flaunting themselves, that to this day, there is a hugely distorted and negative pic. gotta go back to the foundation. all we are, is people who discovered what jesus did. we asked him to forgive us, so we could be with him for all eternity, and he did! now he's waiting for anyone else! like sarah said, we're no better than anyone else. and any christian who thinks that, has something coming to them! we arent at all.
and the bible IS historically proven. it isnt just twisted around, its like this. (this date is made up, as an example) "oh! this is a coin from cesar agustus, from 200bc. hey! the bible says that cesar agustus was there at 200bc! woah! look at this document (from 200bc)it talks about some sort of nazarine claiming to be the son of God. they beat and floged him, then crucified him. hey! his name was jesus! wow! its all written write here!" (not in the bible, in other historical documents). and did you know that the bible is more acurate than alot of our history texts? because some of those stories werent recorded for like... 100's of years after they happened. the bible people recorded events when and where they happened. on the spot, accuracy. and if you read it. alot more detail than is needed, is provided. (eg. when jesus Goes to preach somewhere, they say what time of day, the name of the spot in the town where he was, how many people their were, what soem of the opposition said, and the names of the people that he healed.) they have taken this and said "this was an actual place, at this time. its recorded that this blinde person saw." not just recorded in the bible. some things are indesputable. that isnt twisted. if they said "hey! some guy who was a jew was crucified! that must be jesus!" then i'd say that that is twisted. but they have his name, his claims, and everything written down historically. its not fiction.
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As for "who would be a christian, all we get is jokes made about us, stereotyped, etc etc..." (you say that this is more applicable to the middle east...well, yeah. So? Jews have been the scapegoat for people for thousands of years, far more so than christians have been. Who would be a Jew by choice? Again, reversal of your statement. And christians in north america are so affluent that the christian belief influences LAWS here!)
I don't believe you when you say you would've turned out a christian if you were raised somewhere in asia with a strongly hindu family. Sorry. I really, really don't.
Your arguments are falling flat here - I'd be interested to see you research how other religions have proven their biblical texts, because they will tell you, too, that theirs is the one and only correct religion. It's geographical, really. And of COURSE people from other religions do change, that's a given, but statistically you are far more likely to be part of whatever belief is the common one wherever you live. Don't you think that says something about the validity of any religion?
Also - why is so much of the old testament ignored by christians? I'm really very curious about this - do you not believe it was the word of god? I've been told before that it's considered more of a "historical" thing...but you believe genesis...and you believe passages condemning homosexuality...but it's mentioned about a zillion times that women can't cut their hair or that eating shellfish is evil, but those are written off as "cultural" things. Was god just a little crazy back then, and then he smartened up after jesus? I can understand taking the bible as a giant metaphor, but believing it fundamentally makes no sense to me. And I believe that a perfect god would NOT CARE if people worshipped him, and if he loved them indefinitely anyway, he wouldn't force them to suffer for eternity if they didn't pray to him. That seems far too human-like and egotistic. By the way - someone can admit that they're a sinner without believing in the christian god. I certainly don't believe I'm perfect or that I don't ever do bad things. I'm not arrogant like that. I still don't believe in the bible. I have no reason to!
D'you know how many times the story of Jesus has been told in history, with a different name for the hero? Virgin birth, rising from the dead, etc etc...it's an ancient story. I believe that one day we will study the Christian Myth in history class or english class just like we study the ancient greek and roman myths today. The romans believed in their stories of world creation or in zeus and hercules too, but as the world evolved, the common religion changed. Had you lived in that time, you would have believed just as vehemently in their gods.
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1) it is not mentioned a zillion times that women shouldnt cut their hair. its mentioned once that women shouldnt BRAID their hair (and thats new testament)
2)it isnt shell fish, its pork and any animal with cloven hooves. (please dont take this offensively but do not tell me what is in my bible when you havent taken the time to look for it, and i have. i realize word of mouth is probably where that came from, but just for future reference. gimme a quotation if you feel the need to, and i'll be happy to help explain it.)
3) Hebrews 13:8 "jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." jesus god and holy spirit (the trinity) kindof like an egg. three parts (shell yolk and whites) but all one egg. anyway, God never changes. old testament, new testament. same God. same love, same wrath, same power, same beauty, same compassion. (he sure is containing that wrath though)
4) i believe that a perfect god deserves and should be given worship and praise. if you dont give it, god doesnt get wrathful, he's just sad because you dont know him. if you know how huge god is, you cannot help but worship him.
that seemed like an important thing to clear up. but i'm done debating. i'm sorry but thats crap about other stories of jesus. tell me ONE. cause i dont know of any. other religions use jesus in them, but its the same jesus. anyway, i wont even refute that statement. i feel i've already explained the miracle one. its a miracle cause God said "yes". and if you dont believe i would've turned out christian, that is your problem.
the fact that the bible is historically accurate is non disputable. if you go to any secular university and talk to a historian he will tell you likewise. he may not agree with the theology, but historically it is 100%accurate. you can disagree until your blue in the face. its a fact. i'm done defending that.
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that is all.
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Read that for strong similarities between the story of Jesus and another famous hero story, the story of Odysseus by Homer.
You call the entire world being flooded a few thousand years ago, a man building an ark and finding two of EVERY species to repopulate the world with historically accurate? You call the world being created in seven days historically accurate? You call absolutely no evolution (despite vast amounts of scientific evidence for it - where d'you think cats and dogs came from? They're evolved from panthers/cheetahs/other wild cats and wolves, much like many people believe humans evolved from monkies...which still exist, yes. Panthers and wolves still exist, too.) historically accurate?
But yeah...let's stop this. I'm getting frustrated and I'd rather not go on about it.
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and in fact I do believe that evolution is possible - even though I'm a christian. Let's assume for a moment that evolution did happen. I just wanted to let you know that actually humans did not come from monkeys, scientifically speaking, humans and monkeys would have come from the same ancestor, which was neither a human OR a monkey. Just wanted to be clear.
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