I just chaperoned a field trip for my son's class. He attends a public school in NYC. The school bus is a yellow bus run by the city. It is contracted as a DOE bus
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Meh. When I was in public elementary school in the late 1970s, they had us say the Pledge and the Lord's Prayer every day. It didn't hurt me any, or the other non-Christian kids who also said the Lord's Prayer as cheerfully as everybody else.
A couple of things about this:
"the right to passive aggressively proselytize to a bus-full of young children."
A) You don't know the driver's intent. Maybe that's what he or she listens to all the time.
B) You have a lot of faith in the transformative power of music. I've seen years and years of church have little or no effect on kids.
I dunno if Jen asked the driver to turn it down or play something else. That's what I would have done if it bothered me.
"Public schools are arreligious spaces, and that includes school-funded conveyances."
Only in the last 20-25 years, and only in a few of the larger, more liberal cities. I've seen it morph over time: first everybody said the Lord's Prayer, then you didn't have to say it but you had to be silent during, then it was removed altogether (again, in the dark blue states).
If you start trying to punish someone for their religious preferences, then you've got big, big trouble. If the driver had been playing some other sort of religious music, would that still be as big a problem?
If you did something that offended someone, would you want them to tell you about it to your face? Or call your company and complain about it that way?
I grew up in a red state and we never payed in school. I take the separation of church and state very seriously. Children already get pigeonholed and stereotyped, they don't need someone bombarding them with negative messages like that. Anything that tells someone they are going to suffer if they don't follow a set religion is negative, and has no place in a school setting. This "we're right, you're wrong" attitude has GOT to stop - it sends the wrong message to children.
If kids have been going to church their whole lives, they might just tune it out. I went very rarely as a child - only when visiting relatives - and churches freak me out. Why? Because there is inevitably someone there who thinks my soul is condemned, and that kind of negative energy is bad.
I know you have been a caretaker for children in the past, but it really is not easy to stop in the middle of a field trip to possibly begin an argument with someone. Kindergarteners are very impressionable, and my son is very sensitive to anyone he perceives as a threat. the man was already glaring at everyone who boarded the bus, and I was in charge of keeping little kids happy and safe on a day where it was pouring down sleet. Addressing the driver would have been unsafe, and it had the potential of causing an uproar.
After the drama that my son went through with his last Kindergarten class, I do not want to give his new classmates any reason to point a finger at him. I also consider it illegal for a driver to be playing something so loudly, and inappropriate (and I believe illegal, too) for that subject matter to be played.
I'm not trying to punish someone for their beliefs. I'm trying to punish someone for subjecting young children to their beliefs. Most people do not listen to sermons while they are working. It's not an unreasonable request.
And whenever I do offend people when I'm in a professional setting at the school, they DO call the PTA office to complain. Granted, they are complaining because their child did not win the BTFE competition, but that's still a complaint.
If someone conducts themself in an inappropriate manner on company time (on DOE time), then, yes, the employer should be notified. If I just tell the guy to stop, there's no telling how he's going to react, since he is already being inconsiderate of small children.
A lot of what was acceptable in the 70s is no longer acceptable now. The laws, as they stand now, say that what the bus driver was doing is illegal. Just because you grew up with something doesn't make it okay.
Also, jendaby said it wasn't just music, but evangelical sermons. That's a very different ball of wax. I can listen to "Operator" all I want, but it's quite different than a sermon telling me I'm a sinner and that I'm going to hell.
Also, everything jendaby said below about driver safety and the other elements of the driver's disposition.
This is not a person who should be anywhere near public school children, or children of any sort, from what it sounds like.
"The laws, as they stand now, say that what the bus driver was doing is illegal."
I don't believe that's true, but I'm not a lawyer. Separation is not equal to exclusion. Frex, you can take your class on a field trip to a Mosque (like they did in a Boston suburb), and if some of the kids decide to bow to Mecca, you still don't have a legal action at hand. In the end, like Jen suggests in her post, the driver probably will be told to not play the radio while working, making a crappy job even crappier for them in the future.
Again, I don't think it is, as you said "Pretty Fucking Terrible." If they bus had gotten in an accident and somebody was injured, especially if it was a child, that would be "pretty fucking terrible." This falls into the "mildly upsetting" category of incidents. You also seem to think the driver should be fired for this. That's pretty fucking terrible, to want to have somebody lose their job, especially in this economy, because he played the radio loud on a station Jen didn't like.
I'm not saying Jen shouldn't complain. If it bothered her, she should. But I don't think the driver should (or will) be fired for it. The driver 1) wasn't drunk, 2) didn't molest children, and 3) didn't get in an accident. Are my expectations for school bus drivers very low? Yes they are: I know what they get paid.
1) I didn't say he should be fired. I said he shouldn't be around kids. That had as much to do with the scary demeanor described as his listening material. Buses get chartered for a lot of jobs that don't involve kids.
2) Taking children to a religious place to teach them about culture is different and you know it. Stop twisting things. A trip to a synagogue during a unit on the Holocaust or to a Cathedral during a lesson on Roman or Medieval History would be totally, pardon the pun, kosher. Or a trip to a Mosque. Learning about a religion is not the same as being preached to.
Having someone burn down your house is a terrible thing, and would be very upsetting. That doesn't mean that having someone steal your metro card is okay because it's comparatively less severe.
I used to be a restaurant server at an all-night pancake house. I had to deal with drunk customers barfing on the table and jerks groping me. I was paid less than minimum wage, and most people don't tip the graveyard shift. It was a crappy job. That doesn't mean that I didn't wear the uniform. I did not dress in my proto-goth clothing and run around listening to Concrete Blonde on a walkman at full blast just because I didn't like being referred to as "cupcake" by inebriated frat guys.
If the guy is actually incapable of doing his job without blasting sermons, then he is really working the wrong job. And this really isn't about whether or not I like what he was listening to. It's about him having respect for the diversity of the students on board that bus. If the driver and the people at the DOE department of Pupil Transportation can't see that playing any religious sermon over the radio (or political show! - anything that preaches about only one way to think/act/look/be) then they ALL need cultural Sensitivity Training (or whatever it is called) to help them understand that they are not conducting themselves properly.
I wouldn't let a street sweeper spit on my shoes just because they aren't paid well...and while we are talking about underpaid...teachers are seriously underpaid, and they ARE expected to uphold certain standards. So should everyone else interacting with school children professionally.
"I did not dress in my proto-goth clothing and run around listening to Concrete Blonde on a walkman at full blast just because I didn't like being referred to as "cupcake" by inebriated frat guys."
But think how much happier it would have made you!
A couple of things about this:
"the right to passive aggressively proselytize to a bus-full of young children."
A) You don't know the driver's intent. Maybe that's what he or she listens to all the time.
B) You have a lot of faith in the transformative power of music. I've seen years and years of church have little or no effect on kids.
I dunno if Jen asked the driver to turn it down or play something else. That's what I would have done if it bothered me.
"Public schools are arreligious spaces, and that includes school-funded conveyances."
Only in the last 20-25 years, and only in a few of the larger, more liberal cities. I've seen it morph over time: first everybody said the Lord's Prayer, then you didn't have to say it but you had to be silent during, then it was removed altogether (again, in the dark blue states).
If you start trying to punish someone for their religious preferences, then you've got big, big trouble. If the driver had been playing some other sort of religious music, would that still be as big a problem?
If you did something that offended someone, would you want them to tell you about it to your face? Or call your company and complain about it that way?
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If kids have been going to church their whole lives, they might just tune it out. I went very rarely as a child - only when visiting relatives - and churches freak me out. Why? Because there is inevitably someone there who thinks my soul is condemned, and that kind of negative energy is bad.
I know you have been a caretaker for children in the past, but it really is not easy to stop in the middle of a field trip to possibly begin an argument with someone. Kindergarteners are very impressionable, and my son is very sensitive to anyone he perceives as a threat. the man was already glaring at everyone who boarded the bus, and I was in charge of keeping little kids happy and safe on a day where it was pouring down sleet. Addressing the driver would have been unsafe, and it had the potential of causing an uproar.
After the drama that my son went through with his last Kindergarten class, I do not want to give his new classmates any reason to point a finger at him. I also consider it illegal for a driver to be playing something so loudly, and inappropriate (and I believe illegal, too) for that subject matter to be played.
I'm not trying to punish someone for their beliefs. I'm trying to punish someone for subjecting young children to their beliefs. Most people do not listen to sermons while they are working. It's not an unreasonable request.
And whenever I do offend people when I'm in a professional setting at the school, they DO call the PTA office to complain. Granted, they are complaining because their child did not win the BTFE competition, but that's still a complaint.
If someone conducts themself in an inappropriate manner on company time (on DOE time), then, yes, the employer should be notified. If I just tell the guy to stop, there's no telling how he's going to react, since he is already being inconsiderate of small children.
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Also, jendaby said it wasn't just music, but evangelical sermons. That's a very different ball of wax. I can listen to "Operator" all I want, but it's quite different than a sermon telling me I'm a sinner and that I'm going to hell.
Also, everything jendaby said below about driver safety and the other elements of the driver's disposition.
This is not a person who should be anywhere near public school children, or children of any sort, from what it sounds like.
Reply
I don't believe that's true, but I'm not a lawyer. Separation is not equal to exclusion. Frex, you can take your class on a field trip to a Mosque (like they did in a Boston suburb), and if some of the kids decide to bow to Mecca, you still don't have a legal action at hand. In the end, like Jen suggests in her post, the driver probably will be told to not play the radio while working, making a crappy job even crappier for them in the future.
Again, I don't think it is, as you said "Pretty Fucking Terrible." If they bus had gotten in an accident and somebody was injured, especially if it was a child, that would be "pretty fucking terrible." This falls into the "mildly upsetting" category of incidents. You also seem to think the driver should be fired for this. That's pretty fucking terrible, to want to have somebody lose their job, especially in this economy, because he played the radio loud on a station Jen didn't like.
I'm not saying Jen shouldn't complain. If it bothered her, she should. But I don't think the driver should (or will) be fired for it. The driver 1) wasn't drunk, 2) didn't molest children, and 3) didn't get in an accident. Are my expectations for school bus drivers very low? Yes they are: I know what they get paid.
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2) Taking children to a religious place to teach them about culture is different and you know it. Stop twisting things. A trip to a synagogue during a unit on the Holocaust or to a Cathedral during a lesson on Roman or Medieval History would be totally, pardon the pun, kosher. Or a trip to a Mosque. Learning about a religion is not the same as being preached to.
Reply
I used to be a restaurant server at an all-night pancake house. I had to deal with drunk customers barfing on the table and jerks groping me. I was paid less than minimum wage, and most people don't tip the graveyard shift. It was a crappy job. That doesn't mean that I didn't wear the uniform. I did not dress in my proto-goth clothing and run around listening to Concrete Blonde on a walkman at full blast just because I didn't like being referred to as "cupcake" by inebriated frat guys.
If the guy is actually incapable of doing his job without blasting sermons, then he is really working the wrong job. And this really isn't about whether or not I like what he was listening to. It's about him having respect for the diversity of the students on board that bus. If the driver and the people at the DOE department of Pupil Transportation can't see that playing any religious sermon over the radio (or political show! - anything that preaches about only one way to think/act/look/be) then they ALL need cultural Sensitivity Training (or whatever it is called) to help them understand that they are not conducting themselves properly.
I wouldn't let a street sweeper spit on my shoes just because they aren't paid well...and while we are talking about underpaid...teachers are seriously underpaid, and they ARE expected to uphold certain standards. So should everyone else interacting with school children professionally.
Reply
But think how much happier it would have made you!
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