Many MCU thoughts
Since I don’t really know if anyone is still even reading the thoughts I put out there, I have developed a habit of writing up my thoughts and sitting on them for a few days before I actually post them. So I wrote this up a couple days ago after the Spiderman drama started up, and some of it might already not apply, but I might as well throw it out there.
Just a few Marvel/MCU thoughts, partly brought by the Spiderman stuff going on, and partly stuff I’ve been thinking on for a bit.
The Spiderman falling out going on is kind of the reason why I’m saying something I’ve been wondering as we’ve been learning more about plans for Phase 4, especially with the Comic Con lineup reveal.
I think the MCU has too many properties.
I think this weird combo TV (for simplicity we’re going to call it TV) and movie lineup shows that they have more characters they want out there than they have resources to make movies for, especially without just flooding the movie market. And I think the choices regarding which things they’ve sent to TV are kind of odd; mostly because they’re more interesting sounding that the movies. Since they’re bringing in the A-list stars for the TV shows I have little reason to think the characters/actors/stories are being short-changed by being TV shows rather than movies (concerns, yes), and clearly Disney wants some high end stuff to put on Disney+. But the movie lineup looks kind of...bad.
I actually think Black Widow would be a better TV show than movie, depending on what they’re doing with it. Do we know for a fact that it’s a flashback rather than some resurrection story, or is that still assumption? But either way, I think a TV show would give it a lot more room to breathe. And if it is a flashback, I really don’t want an origin movie, beyond the fact that I don’t really like origin movies it seems like a bad time to do an origin movie for Natasha.
I could not care less about the Eternals or the Kung-Fu guy, and I don’t really like Doctor Strange that much. And the Thor movie...I kind of only care if Sif is in it... Mainly I mean I’ll decide in a couple years how interested I am in it and whether trailers make it look interesting.
Part of Marvel’s problem with this lineup is going to be convincing people that it’s still important to see every movie. I know I don’t currently assume I’ll see all of them; I might, but I also might not watch any of them. With the debatable exception of Black Widow (and that will depend on what kind of story it looks like they’re telling) I’m not really clamoring for any of them. But I would be if there was a Guardians movie, hell an Ant-man one, or Black Panther, or maybe even Captain Marvel to see if they can do better now that they’ve got the origin stuff out of the way.
Or Spiderman. And I would not be surprised if this figured into Sony’s stance on this; they want a new Spiderman movie out in 2-3 years and Marvel has a lot of other things they’re working on and may not get to it promptly; definitely not in two years and they have other things that have been on the shelf longer once you get the three.
And the thing is...this is a bad setup for Marvel too. Because only being able being able to tell a certain number of stories in a year means you may not get to tell the best story for the characters. I want to see Wakanda and how T’challa returns from the Blip. I want to see Ant-man reconnect with his daughter after being gone so long. I want to see what the Guardians get up to because every world out there is going through the same stuff as Earth with people coming back. I want answers to what Fury is up to. And I want to see the fallout of what happened at the end of Far From Home. I don’t want to wait 3+ years to continue a story that should pick up more or less where it left off (admittedly I would think Peter could go hide out with Pepper and Morgan for a while until they set the Stark lawyers on people, but that’s me). And most of those stories we probably aren’t going to get because there isn’t time for it.
I do think that if they can’t come to an agreement, both companies will live to regret the Spiderman fallout. This Spiderman is too enmeshed in the MCU to remove him from it, and ain’t nobody going to watch another Spiderman origin movie if they reboot it. And if the MCU leaves us hanging on Peter’s story after that ending, it’s going to remain something people want more than these new properties we’re getting.
And you didn’t think I wouldn’t drag Agents of SHIELD into this, did you? Ever since they confirmed that they’re already finished filming s7, I’ve been wondering what that means for it in the larger scheme of things. It also kind of brings us back to my theory about when AoS is done they have to return the rights to Coulson to the movie level MCU, in a state where the movies can use him again.
I don’t really like having this in the back of my head, because it gives me a weird feeling like this is why Coulson died in s5. They didn’t know they were getting anything past s5, so they had to kill him in such a way that the movies would be free to resurrect him without having to explain what happened in the meantime. Especially since by movie logic he shouldn’t remember anything past Avengers and they can paper over it for AoS fans that he has amnesia back to that point. And that puts me in mind as to why what we’re getting is s6&7 isn’t really Coulson; but Sarge and LMD-Coulson.
Now, for my desires, I am currently hoping that LMD-Coulson ends up getting damaged, they time travel to exchange him for Coulson in Tahiti, it turns out it was LMD-Coulson in May’s flashbacks because he would still have all the right memories to keep up banter for a day or two before he expired; and nobody checked because, well, Chronocoms (and LMDs for that matter) are supposed to pass for human anyway and they knew what was killing Coulson already. This allows me to bring back our Coulson and for him and May to still drive off into the sunset (in Lola) at the end of the series the way I believe it should end.
But...and if you’re wondering what this has to do with filing schedule, if they’re already done shooting s7, it may air before Phase 4 really starts. It could be slated for a Jan/Feb sort of release and be done around the time Black Widow comes out. Even if it’s more a April release for AoS, it would probably wrap up before anything set in the modern time of the movie side. This would mean AoS was over before anything on the movie level could make use of Coulson. And if part of wrapping up AoS is putting things in a form that the movie level stuff (including the new TV shows) could use or work around. And since s6 and probably 7 seem so much less connected than ever, that feels likely to involve all but wiping this side of the story from existence. Meaning the series, instead of ending on its terms, putting its character where its own story would have them fall, we could be headed for an ending that isn’t about where they should go but where the higher tier needs them...out of sight and out of mind.
Which brings us to the Marvel Studios vs. Marvel Entertainment divide. Coulson belongs to Marvel Studios as he started in the movies, but most every other character was invented for the show therefore is Marvel Entertainment. Daisy is sort of an awkward split as she was kind of a comic character, but this version of her backstory was invented for the show. And while Coulson, and many of the characters invented for the show, have been brought into the comics since their introduction I’m not sure where that puts all the rights, much less how much MS would care to include it.
There could a weird sort of irony in using Coulson in Phase 4 but saying that his alive status still has to be secret from the outside world, so he can’t make contact with a lot of people he used to know. For ‘amnesia’ Coulson this means the Cellist (who they may or may not ever use and may or may not recast and rename if they do but AoS used her so rarely and I don’t know where that puts the rights to her, that they might do it either way) and maybe May gets a mention as feeling bad some old friends don’t know he came back. It does not include an entire team of people that he’s adopted over the years and realizing that May is the love of his life and vice versa.
I know this has a lot to do with my shipping tastes, but even practically, for me the main problem with ignoring AoS canon and reverting to prior-Coulson is May. May did not exist on a meta level at the time of The Avengers, so properly resetting him to just things MS feels responsibility for doesn’t include her. But in AoS canon, their story did not begin with the pilot episode, so ‘amnesia’ wouldn’t actually erase her from his life and memory. It would piss a lot of people off (and I’d lead the charge...from my nothing corner of the internet) but you could argue he didn’t exactly love her and assumes after being dead for the better part of a decade as far as he knows it’s better if he doesn’t make waves with some people. It would pretty out of character for the team especially Daisy not to make contact with new-Coulson if they learn he’s alive so there will be just as much or more wallpaper over that as there was going the other way; but since May should be remembered by him it’s a bigger deal (also I care more).
Or maybe one day new-Coulson sees a Facebook post of May on her honeymoon in Ireland with a totally-not-a-robot version of Coulson and they’ll give us some answers then. Look I may think May’s going to react badly to robot-Coulson, and think it’s kind of creepy if this is how we get our happy ending for them (depending on how much they actually explore the existential questions this raises) but it could happen without it going against the need of potentially resurrecting Coulson for movie level canon. Which I still think is a concern, weirdly especially with the show on track for an earlier release next year thus clearing the way for whatever the plans are.
Also, since I never made a dedicated FFH review, I can give you a rundown of my thoughts during the final Fury scene.
-Fury seems to be on the same green screen beach as Coulson and May.
-Fury must really like Tahiti. You know, we never got why the TAHITI program was named that, did Fury just want the initials to spell TAHITI?
-Oh, he actually is on a holodeck, I guess he’s not neighbors with Coulson and May.
Just a few Marvel/MCU thoughts, partly brought by the Spiderman stuff going on, and partly stuff I’ve been thinking on for a bit.
The Spiderman falling out going on is kind of the reason why I’m saying something I’ve been wondering as we’ve been learning more about plans for Phase 4, especially with the Comic Con lineup reveal.
I think the MCU has too many properties.
I think this weird combo TV (for simplicity we’re going to call it TV) and movie lineup shows that they have more characters they want out there than they have resources to make movies for, especially without just flooding the movie market. And I think the choices regarding which things they’ve sent to TV are kind of odd; mostly because they’re more interesting sounding that the movies. Since they’re bringing in the A-list stars for the TV shows I have little reason to think the characters/actors/stories are being short-changed by being TV shows rather than movies (concerns, yes), and clearly Disney wants some high end stuff to put on Disney+. But the movie lineup looks kind of...bad.
I actually think Black Widow would be a better TV show than movie, depending on what they’re doing with it. Do we know for a fact that it’s a flashback rather than some resurrection story, or is that still assumption? But either way, I think a TV show would give it a lot more room to breathe. And if it is a flashback, I really don’t want an origin movie, beyond the fact that I don’t really like origin movies it seems like a bad time to do an origin movie for Natasha.
I could not care less about the Eternals or the Kung-Fu guy, and I don’t really like Doctor Strange that much. And the Thor movie...I kind of only care if Sif is in it... Mainly I mean I’ll decide in a couple years how interested I am in it and whether trailers make it look interesting.
Part of Marvel’s problem with this lineup is going to be convincing people that it’s still important to see every movie. I know I don’t currently assume I’ll see all of them; I might, but I also might not watch any of them. With the debatable exception of Black Widow (and that will depend on what kind of story it looks like they’re telling) I’m not really clamoring for any of them. But I would be if there was a Guardians movie, hell an Ant-man one, or Black Panther, or maybe even Captain Marvel to see if they can do better now that they’ve got the origin stuff out of the way.
Or Spiderman. And I would not be surprised if this figured into Sony’s stance on this; they want a new Spiderman movie out in 2-3 years and Marvel has a lot of other things they’re working on and may not get to it promptly; definitely not in two years and they have other things that have been on the shelf longer once you get the three.
And the thing is...this is a bad setup for Marvel too. Because only being able being able to tell a certain number of stories in a year means you may not get to tell the best story for the characters. I want to see Wakanda and how T’challa returns from the Blip. I want to see Ant-man reconnect with his daughter after being gone so long. I want to see what the Guardians get up to because every world out there is going through the same stuff as Earth with people coming back. I want answers to what Fury is up to. And I want to see the fallout of what happened at the end of Far From Home. I don’t want to wait 3+ years to continue a story that should pick up more or less where it left off (admittedly I would think Peter could go hide out with Pepper and Morgan for a while until they set the Stark lawyers on people, but that’s me). And most of those stories we probably aren’t going to get because there isn’t time for it.
I do think that if they can’t come to an agreement, both companies will live to regret the Spiderman fallout. This Spiderman is too enmeshed in the MCU to remove him from it, and ain’t nobody going to watch another Spiderman origin movie if they reboot it. And if the MCU leaves us hanging on Peter’s story after that ending, it’s going to remain something people want more than these new properties we’re getting.
And you didn’t think I wouldn’t drag Agents of SHIELD into this, did you? Ever since they confirmed that they’re already finished filming s7, I’ve been wondering what that means for it in the larger scheme of things. It also kind of brings us back to my theory about when AoS is done they have to return the rights to Coulson to the movie level MCU, in a state where the movies can use him again.
I don’t really like having this in the back of my head, because it gives me a weird feeling like this is why Coulson died in s5. They didn’t know they were getting anything past s5, so they had to kill him in such a way that the movies would be free to resurrect him without having to explain what happened in the meantime. Especially since by movie logic he shouldn’t remember anything past Avengers and they can paper over it for AoS fans that he has amnesia back to that point. And that puts me in mind as to why what we’re getting is s6&7 isn’t really Coulson; but Sarge and LMD-Coulson.
Now, for my desires, I am currently hoping that LMD-Coulson ends up getting damaged, they time travel to exchange him for Coulson in Tahiti, it turns out it was LMD-Coulson in May’s flashbacks because he would still have all the right memories to keep up banter for a day or two before he expired; and nobody checked because, well, Chronocoms (and LMDs for that matter) are supposed to pass for human anyway and they knew what was killing Coulson already. This allows me to bring back our Coulson and for him and May to still drive off into the sunset (in Lola) at the end of the series the way I believe it should end.
But...and if you’re wondering what this has to do with filing schedule, if they’re already done shooting s7, it may air before Phase 4 really starts. It could be slated for a Jan/Feb sort of release and be done around the time Black Widow comes out. Even if it’s more a April release for AoS, it would probably wrap up before anything set in the modern time of the movie side. This would mean AoS was over before anything on the movie level could make use of Coulson. And if part of wrapping up AoS is putting things in a form that the movie level stuff (including the new TV shows) could use or work around. And since s6 and probably 7 seem so much less connected than ever, that feels likely to involve all but wiping this side of the story from existence. Meaning the series, instead of ending on its terms, putting its character where its own story would have them fall, we could be headed for an ending that isn’t about where they should go but where the higher tier needs them...out of sight and out of mind.
Which brings us to the Marvel Studios vs. Marvel Entertainment divide. Coulson belongs to Marvel Studios as he started in the movies, but most every other character was invented for the show therefore is Marvel Entertainment. Daisy is sort of an awkward split as she was kind of a comic character, but this version of her backstory was invented for the show. And while Coulson, and many of the characters invented for the show, have been brought into the comics since their introduction I’m not sure where that puts all the rights, much less how much MS would care to include it.
There could a weird sort of irony in using Coulson in Phase 4 but saying that his alive status still has to be secret from the outside world, so he can’t make contact with a lot of people he used to know. For ‘amnesia’ Coulson this means the Cellist (who they may or may not ever use and may or may not recast and rename if they do but AoS used her so rarely and I don’t know where that puts the rights to her, that they might do it either way) and maybe May gets a mention as feeling bad some old friends don’t know he came back. It does not include an entire team of people that he’s adopted over the years and realizing that May is the love of his life and vice versa.
I know this has a lot to do with my shipping tastes, but even practically, for me the main problem with ignoring AoS canon and reverting to prior-Coulson is May. May did not exist on a meta level at the time of The Avengers, so properly resetting him to just things MS feels responsibility for doesn’t include her. But in AoS canon, their story did not begin with the pilot episode, so ‘amnesia’ wouldn’t actually erase her from his life and memory. It would piss a lot of people off (and I’d lead the charge...from my nothing corner of the internet) but you could argue he didn’t exactly love her and assumes after being dead for the better part of a decade as far as he knows it’s better if he doesn’t make waves with some people. It would pretty out of character for the team especially Daisy not to make contact with new-Coulson if they learn he’s alive so there will be just as much or more wallpaper over that as there was going the other way; but since May should be remembered by him it’s a bigger deal (also I care more).
Or maybe one day new-Coulson sees a Facebook post of May on her honeymoon in Ireland with a totally-not-a-robot version of Coulson and they’ll give us some answers then. Look I may think May’s going to react badly to robot-Coulson, and think it’s kind of creepy if this is how we get our happy ending for them (depending on how much they actually explore the existential questions this raises) but it could happen without it going against the need of potentially resurrecting Coulson for movie level canon. Which I still think is a concern, weirdly especially with the show on track for an earlier release next year thus clearing the way for whatever the plans are.
Also, since I never made a dedicated FFH review, I can give you a rundown of my thoughts during the final Fury scene.
-Fury seems to be on the same green screen beach as Coulson and May.
-Fury must really like Tahiti. You know, we never got why the TAHITI program was named that, did Fury just want the initials to spell TAHITI?
-Oh, he actually is on a holodeck, I guess he’s not neighbors with Coulson and May.