RH 3x11 thoughts
Robin Hood 3x11 in which we meet Archer and I continue to take Guy’s side in everything
Okay, first off let’s get a few nitty gritty things out of the way
-Guy’s change of costume makes no sense unless the pair of them went to raid Locksley to get horses and Guy a change of clothes. Also, why did he need to? After his super hotness last week this was kind of a step back, still ridiculously criminally hot though.
-Allan got actual lines (actually I’ll get back to this later, but it does deserve a point)
-The thwacky arrow is getting another workout here, YORK, followed in two seconds by YORK DUNGEON, thank you thwaky arrow, I would never have been able to work the second one out from the first and the cut to the dungeon.
-Why didn’t Much get more lines? This makes me sad as usual.
-Guy and Izzy both ride white horses in this ep. Vasey used to ride the white horse too so I don’t think we can get any redemption angles out of that, in fact if anything it makes me worry for Guy’s redemption arc.
-Ridiculous running across England is ridiculous. Alright they might have take Izzy’s horses after the ambush, at least I hope they did, no matter how ridiculous them being to stage the ambush itself was.
-Why did the director think the under shot of Isabella at the end was the right camera angle? Must have been on something.
Okay, now some actual thoughts.
The Guy and Robin dynamic here is fairly well handled. They’re not happy to be working together, they don’t trust each other really yet, but they’re working on it. We watch them go through a lot of phases with that in the course of the episode until in the end I would actually call it tentative friendship and trust, still not *happy* with it, but that’s going to take more than one adventure.
It’s going to take more than one adventure for the rest of the gang too, especially since they were kept out of most of this adventure. It makes sense that Kate and John, the most black and white thinkers of the group have the strongest reaction to including Guy. I really wish Will was around because he like Kate has very personal reasons to hate Guy. Ultimately Much will trust Robin on just about anything even if it breaks his heart, Tuck has the least invested in it either way and has his own reasons for agreeing to the idea, and Allan is the most likely to give Guy another chance for several reasons. The outlaws run a pretty wide spectrum is my point but none of them think of Guy as part of the family yet.
Not that I think Guy would be ready to accept it yet anyway. Guy is not going to just accept a new master, nor is he crazy about Robin so he’s not going to follow the Robin is always right crowd, and he *feels* the difference between him and them every bit as much as they do. He’s not expecting to be forgiven or accepted. Robin is in the position to dictate people reactions, Guy isn’t. What’s more Guy has long been the one having his own reactions dictated so he knows that doesn’t necessarily speak to the emotions underneath. So when Robin’s making it about the gang listening to him and trusting his judgment, Guy includes another way to look at it, saying that ‘yeah, you may not be happy about it, and I’m not even asking you to be, just let us go off and do this.’ For him it definitely isn’t enough for a leader to say “Trust me” there has to be another reason. Not that I truly think the writers necessarily thought about it that way, but I’m going with that.
In any case this show really has been a show with two lead characters. It’s never been a true ensemble show as much as I wished it was but this season in particular we’ve had Robin and Guy in their separate stories but easily the leads in each of their own stories. And it’s brought them to a point where they’re finally on the same side, it’s going to take *me* time to get used to that idea, much less the actual characters.
But back to Guy and Robin but starting at the beginning and the Great Marian Fight Part…I’m not sure these days. I think it was the first time they started really thinking about where the other stood on the issue. I’m pretty sure this was the first time where Guy actually equated the way he and Robin felt for Marian instead of focusing on his own side only. When Robin pointed out that Marian was *his* wife, Guy didn’t act like an ass about it, just reminded Robin that that didn’t mean Guy hadn’t loved her too. He seems to have finally taken responsibility for killing Marian too. in that he doesn’t try and shift blame to anyone else and admits that he can’t forgive himself. I think it’s his “I’ll not ask for your forgiveness” that really gets Robin’s attention though. Here’s Guy admitting that Robin is the one entitled to grant forgiveness or not for that (in Marian’s absence of course) but that Guy isn’t going to ask for it because he feels he doesn’t deserve it. But that Robin heard all that, what Guy was really saying, through the layers of Gisborne-ese is a respectable accomplishment.
So then we have Guy and Robin at the toll stop. And really, now typically Guy to throw himself into this outlaw thing more than Robin was expecting. Although once they were in there I’m sure Robin was worried Guy was going to be Guy about it and kill the toll-man, before hand he probably hadn’t expected Guy to go in for the whole outlaw experience. And it is kind of odd to see him anti-establishment, even when the establishment is Isabella, but it’s also very Guy to jump in with both feet, especially now that he has no need to even try and straddle the line.
When it comes to trying to break into the “York” (with its striking similarities to Nottingham) castle one is again reminded of the differences between Guy and Robin. Robin may not entirely trust Guy yet, but he’s fairly trusting of his own skills and luck and even willing to trust Guy. Guy on the other hand is really quite cautious here. It occurs to me that we’ve very rarely seen him in a situation where he hasn’t had more powerful people around him. It’s strange for such a powerful seeming man that he’s almost always acted only with the knowledge that he had more powerful forces backing him up (unless he expected to die even in season 2, or when he must have been super confident he could get away with saving Marian in TotN). Here he has one ally who he doesn’t really trust by a long shot for all he’s playing nice now.
Guy’s really not comfortable with Robin’s improvisational planning. If they had planned to get into a bar fight and one of them get arrested it would have been one thing but as a spur of the moment decision he’s not comfortable with it. But it is part of how Robin always manages to keep winning (on an in textual level, mostly it’s just that he’s the main character). Vasey plays chess, and Guy’s used to being part of that game, Robin’s game is a whole new concept for him.
In any case the bar scene was quite funny and gave many chuckles, it also seems to have given me deep thoughts.
So Guy gets thrown in jail and immediately groped, I’m sure leading many to write jail-sex fics. I’m not sure what to make of Guy’s expression when the old man tries to get Guy to kill him, I know I was taken back to Guy’s death wish especially when he was actually asking Robin to kill him, but it feels like there’s something else to it too. Like Guy realizing these were his people now, outlaws and prisoners that he’d spent so long fighting against really was where he fit in now. I’m not sure about that one.
At that point the story really does become about our other major player this week, Archer. I’m really not sure how I feel about Archer yet but I’d like to know more. My current feeling is that while I’d like him to be part of the gang, I don’t want to him to be the new Robin, any of the characters that’s been there more than one season I’m in for, including Guy, or Will or Djac for that matter, and of course Marian would have made an awesome lead character (I’d just throw things if Tuck were to take over as lead and I’d have to hit something if it was Kate). I’m not really picky, I just don’t think Archer has enough time to earn that role in my eyes.
But outside of that, Archer could be an interesting character and addition to the show. Or course, as a supporting character he’s got a lot of Allan to him, but the pair of them being buddies and conning guards and fast talking their way into and out of situations could give good times. He’s clearly a good hearted character, selfishly motivated most of the time, but not to the point where he’ll let others die while he runs off (even when he was selling Robin out he did it knowing Izzy wanted them alive). And he doesn’t really know what he’s getting into heading into Nottingham, no reason to assume Izzy isn’t someone he wants to join up with (and I’m not convinced she shouldn’t be anyway) in addition to the obvious appeal of having a sibling with actual connections.
So I’m definitely not writing him off yet, not by a long shot, either as a good guy or a character, but I’m not sold on him yet either.
But anyway, back to our two leading men, but really from here on it’s about Guy, I’m not even going to pretend otherwise now. Anyway, my little Guy loving heart broke a little when he overreacted to bringing his parents up. Reliving all of those experiences during Malcolm’s story can’t have been easy for him, and yet he doesn’t really want Archer to think badly of their shared mother, as it’s their common ground. Also the fact that Ghislaine fooling around is the reason Archer exists so for lots of reasons Guy couldn’t bring himself to call his mother a whore, or whatever word he would have used that meant the same thing. I think both Robin and Archer must have a pretty good idea what Guy started out to say (Robin because he did it himself earlier and Archer because well, it’s not exactly well covered, being as it comes from Guy and all), but he couldn’t actually say it, mostly because he does still love his mother, it’s why he’s there after all.
Guy saving John was necessary, if a little sudden, but since this whole plot has been a lot of sudden moves I’ll overlook that. John’s !!WTF!! face afterwards cracked me up but good. Makes me wish they gave John more to do (as usually happens when he’s not making bad shipping choices) because he obviously could contribute so much more to the show.
At which point I’m going to fast-forward to the end. I know a lot of people laughed at Guy’s “Where do you expect me to sleep?” line but I just can’t. There’s so much to that line. None of them have adjusted to the idea of him being there yet, there isn’t really a *place* for him there and he knows it. He’s not family, he’s at best an ally, and with his history with these people he’s probably going to be sleeping with one eye open even if he can think he trusts them. And they’ll probably be keeping a very close watch on him for exactly the same reasons.
And now since there were people in the episode besides the brotherly team I will talk about them a bit. Short overview, Tuck still annoys me, Kate’s kind of all over the map with me this week, I get John even if I think it could have been handled better, Allan is awesome, and Izzy is still Izzy.
You know, if they’d play up the Tuck as strategist angle without making him the de facto second in command I’d probably deal with him better. Because it does make sense, since he’s actually educated and everything that he could be the strategist among them But he’s never felt fully like part of the gang to me, he’s there to be Robin’s PR man, not to make friends with the gang. Yet again I wish we’d gotten more between him and Guy because that could be such a natural relationship, but that would mean Tuck caring about someone besides Robin in all this.
Of course that pales next to how much I wanted Guy and Allan scenes. They actually know each other in a way even Robin doesn’t know Guy. Allan’s played both sides of the game, they were friends, Allan’s seen what Guy had to deal with in Vasey’s shadow and the parts of Guy that with some nurturing could be turned into a good man. Granted Allan wasn’t against Guy here, but I wanted so much more. However his interactions with John were awesome, and not just because it was finally a substantial Allan scene this season. I’m so glad Allan went after John, after being such a quiet presence on the show this year he got to be the voice of the family instead of the voice of decent like he’s been in years past. Of course I wish we’d seen more of him this year as he grew into that role, but it makes sense that he is now (as much as it can without seeing more than flashes of the development).
I really have no problem with Kate’s anger at Guy, it makes total sense, and really I wish it hadn’t disappeared so easily at a few words from Robin. Yes Kate played a big role in getting her brother killed, but Guy was the one who stabbed Matthew and he didn’t *have* to. I may be one of the bigger Guy apologists around but I don’t expect him to be easily forgiven for what he’s done even if I can understand most of it from my perspective. But it’s consistent with Kate’s characterization the last few episodes (though not her first few eps) that she listened to Robin talk her down and then decided to go along with it even if she didn’t trust or forgive Guy. Now I’d say this could lead to an interesting dynamic, but I really don’t have enough confidence to say that.
Not enough Much, but I’m kind of hoping that’s got an in character reason that he’s kind of pulling away from the gang after his aborted leaving a couple eps ago (but only a couple days ago in the show) and possibly leaving again. But John was the one who actually tried to leave this episode; but he was just angry, and understandably so because Robin was asking an awful lot for them to trust Gisborne with no prep time. But what was behind Much leaving was more than just a newfound problem with Kate asking him to put his own feeling aside so she could be with Robin, that was bad enough, but with the pattern of being put aside by those he cares for most…he needs someone to talk to about it minimum and as much as I still ship Robin/Much a part of me thinks he needs to get out of that abusive relationship.
And I still love Izzy. I certainly don’t think she’s actually the enemy yet. Yeah she’s against Robin, but we haven’t seen her mistreating the people of Nottingham. Guy’s got his personal reasons for wanting her dead, but I have no idea what’s going through everyone else’s minds. At least it’s consistent for Kate to hate Izzy, even if it makes even less sense now that Robin has “seen [Izzy] for what she is.” And she’s clearly got reason to be paranoid since her enemies are even uniting against her it appears (she knows better than most how much Robin and Guy hate each other). Her and Archer should be an interesting meeting, another brother for her to be paranoid of but he’ll probably play her like a fiddle.
Lastly, if Vasey doesn’t show up during the last couple episodes then I’m really going to questions why they had him be alive anyway. I already think the twitchy finger ruined any surprise his return from the grave would have had (except for the reactions for the other characters), but if he then *doesn’t* come back it’s just dumb.
So, way too long, but there it is, bring on next week.
Okay, first off let’s get a few nitty gritty things out of the way
-Guy’s change of costume makes no sense unless the pair of them went to raid Locksley to get horses and Guy a change of clothes. Also, why did he need to? After his super hotness last week this was kind of a step back, still ridiculously criminally hot though.
-Allan got actual lines (actually I’ll get back to this later, but it does deserve a point)
-The thwacky arrow is getting another workout here, YORK, followed in two seconds by YORK DUNGEON, thank you thwaky arrow, I would never have been able to work the second one out from the first and the cut to the dungeon.
-Why didn’t Much get more lines? This makes me sad as usual.
-Guy and Izzy both ride white horses in this ep. Vasey used to ride the white horse too so I don’t think we can get any redemption angles out of that, in fact if anything it makes me worry for Guy’s redemption arc.
-Ridiculous running across England is ridiculous. Alright they might have take Izzy’s horses after the ambush, at least I hope they did, no matter how ridiculous them being to stage the ambush itself was.
-Why did the director think the under shot of Isabella at the end was the right camera angle? Must have been on something.
Okay, now some actual thoughts.
The Guy and Robin dynamic here is fairly well handled. They’re not happy to be working together, they don’t trust each other really yet, but they’re working on it. We watch them go through a lot of phases with that in the course of the episode until in the end I would actually call it tentative friendship and trust, still not *happy* with it, but that’s going to take more than one adventure.
It’s going to take more than one adventure for the rest of the gang too, especially since they were kept out of most of this adventure. It makes sense that Kate and John, the most black and white thinkers of the group have the strongest reaction to including Guy. I really wish Will was around because he like Kate has very personal reasons to hate Guy. Ultimately Much will trust Robin on just about anything even if it breaks his heart, Tuck has the least invested in it either way and has his own reasons for agreeing to the idea, and Allan is the most likely to give Guy another chance for several reasons. The outlaws run a pretty wide spectrum is my point but none of them think of Guy as part of the family yet.
Not that I think Guy would be ready to accept it yet anyway. Guy is not going to just accept a new master, nor is he crazy about Robin so he’s not going to follow the Robin is always right crowd, and he *feels* the difference between him and them every bit as much as they do. He’s not expecting to be forgiven or accepted. Robin is in the position to dictate people reactions, Guy isn’t. What’s more Guy has long been the one having his own reactions dictated so he knows that doesn’t necessarily speak to the emotions underneath. So when Robin’s making it about the gang listening to him and trusting his judgment, Guy includes another way to look at it, saying that ‘yeah, you may not be happy about it, and I’m not even asking you to be, just let us go off and do this.’ For him it definitely isn’t enough for a leader to say “Trust me” there has to be another reason. Not that I truly think the writers necessarily thought about it that way, but I’m going with that.
In any case this show really has been a show with two lead characters. It’s never been a true ensemble show as much as I wished it was but this season in particular we’ve had Robin and Guy in their separate stories but easily the leads in each of their own stories. And it’s brought them to a point where they’re finally on the same side, it’s going to take *me* time to get used to that idea, much less the actual characters.
But back to Guy and Robin but starting at the beginning and the Great Marian Fight Part…I’m not sure these days. I think it was the first time they started really thinking about where the other stood on the issue. I’m pretty sure this was the first time where Guy actually equated the way he and Robin felt for Marian instead of focusing on his own side only. When Robin pointed out that Marian was *his* wife, Guy didn’t act like an ass about it, just reminded Robin that that didn’t mean Guy hadn’t loved her too. He seems to have finally taken responsibility for killing Marian too. in that he doesn’t try and shift blame to anyone else and admits that he can’t forgive himself. I think it’s his “I’ll not ask for your forgiveness” that really gets Robin’s attention though. Here’s Guy admitting that Robin is the one entitled to grant forgiveness or not for that (in Marian’s absence of course) but that Guy isn’t going to ask for it because he feels he doesn’t deserve it. But that Robin heard all that, what Guy was really saying, through the layers of Gisborne-ese is a respectable accomplishment.
So then we have Guy and Robin at the toll stop. And really, now typically Guy to throw himself into this outlaw thing more than Robin was expecting. Although once they were in there I’m sure Robin was worried Guy was going to be Guy about it and kill the toll-man, before hand he probably hadn’t expected Guy to go in for the whole outlaw experience. And it is kind of odd to see him anti-establishment, even when the establishment is Isabella, but it’s also very Guy to jump in with both feet, especially now that he has no need to even try and straddle the line.
When it comes to trying to break into the “York” (with its striking similarities to Nottingham) castle one is again reminded of the differences between Guy and Robin. Robin may not entirely trust Guy yet, but he’s fairly trusting of his own skills and luck and even willing to trust Guy. Guy on the other hand is really quite cautious here. It occurs to me that we’ve very rarely seen him in a situation where he hasn’t had more powerful people around him. It’s strange for such a powerful seeming man that he’s almost always acted only with the knowledge that he had more powerful forces backing him up (unless he expected to die even in season 2, or when he must have been super confident he could get away with saving Marian in TotN). Here he has one ally who he doesn’t really trust by a long shot for all he’s playing nice now.
Guy’s really not comfortable with Robin’s improvisational planning. If they had planned to get into a bar fight and one of them get arrested it would have been one thing but as a spur of the moment decision he’s not comfortable with it. But it is part of how Robin always manages to keep winning (on an in textual level, mostly it’s just that he’s the main character). Vasey plays chess, and Guy’s used to being part of that game, Robin’s game is a whole new concept for him.
In any case the bar scene was quite funny and gave many chuckles, it also seems to have given me deep thoughts.
So Guy gets thrown in jail and immediately groped, I’m sure leading many to write jail-sex fics. I’m not sure what to make of Guy’s expression when the old man tries to get Guy to kill him, I know I was taken back to Guy’s death wish especially when he was actually asking Robin to kill him, but it feels like there’s something else to it too. Like Guy realizing these were his people now, outlaws and prisoners that he’d spent so long fighting against really was where he fit in now. I’m not sure about that one.
At that point the story really does become about our other major player this week, Archer. I’m really not sure how I feel about Archer yet but I’d like to know more. My current feeling is that while I’d like him to be part of the gang, I don’t want to him to be the new Robin, any of the characters that’s been there more than one season I’m in for, including Guy, or Will or Djac for that matter, and of course Marian would have made an awesome lead character (I’d just throw things if Tuck were to take over as lead and I’d have to hit something if it was Kate). I’m not really picky, I just don’t think Archer has enough time to earn that role in my eyes.
But outside of that, Archer could be an interesting character and addition to the show. Or course, as a supporting character he’s got a lot of Allan to him, but the pair of them being buddies and conning guards and fast talking their way into and out of situations could give good times. He’s clearly a good hearted character, selfishly motivated most of the time, but not to the point where he’ll let others die while he runs off (even when he was selling Robin out he did it knowing Izzy wanted them alive). And he doesn’t really know what he’s getting into heading into Nottingham, no reason to assume Izzy isn’t someone he wants to join up with (and I’m not convinced she shouldn’t be anyway) in addition to the obvious appeal of having a sibling with actual connections.
So I’m definitely not writing him off yet, not by a long shot, either as a good guy or a character, but I’m not sold on him yet either.
But anyway, back to our two leading men, but really from here on it’s about Guy, I’m not even going to pretend otherwise now. Anyway, my little Guy loving heart broke a little when he overreacted to bringing his parents up. Reliving all of those experiences during Malcolm’s story can’t have been easy for him, and yet he doesn’t really want Archer to think badly of their shared mother, as it’s their common ground. Also the fact that Ghislaine fooling around is the reason Archer exists so for lots of reasons Guy couldn’t bring himself to call his mother a whore, or whatever word he would have used that meant the same thing. I think both Robin and Archer must have a pretty good idea what Guy started out to say (Robin because he did it himself earlier and Archer because well, it’s not exactly well covered, being as it comes from Guy and all), but he couldn’t actually say it, mostly because he does still love his mother, it’s why he’s there after all.
Guy saving John was necessary, if a little sudden, but since this whole plot has been a lot of sudden moves I’ll overlook that. John’s !!WTF!! face afterwards cracked me up but good. Makes me wish they gave John more to do (as usually happens when he’s not making bad shipping choices) because he obviously could contribute so much more to the show.
At which point I’m going to fast-forward to the end. I know a lot of people laughed at Guy’s “Where do you expect me to sleep?” line but I just can’t. There’s so much to that line. None of them have adjusted to the idea of him being there yet, there isn’t really a *place* for him there and he knows it. He’s not family, he’s at best an ally, and with his history with these people he’s probably going to be sleeping with one eye open even if he can think he trusts them. And they’ll probably be keeping a very close watch on him for exactly the same reasons.
And now since there were people in the episode besides the brotherly team I will talk about them a bit. Short overview, Tuck still annoys me, Kate’s kind of all over the map with me this week, I get John even if I think it could have been handled better, Allan is awesome, and Izzy is still Izzy.
You know, if they’d play up the Tuck as strategist angle without making him the de facto second in command I’d probably deal with him better. Because it does make sense, since he’s actually educated and everything that he could be the strategist among them But he’s never felt fully like part of the gang to me, he’s there to be Robin’s PR man, not to make friends with the gang. Yet again I wish we’d gotten more between him and Guy because that could be such a natural relationship, but that would mean Tuck caring about someone besides Robin in all this.
Of course that pales next to how much I wanted Guy and Allan scenes. They actually know each other in a way even Robin doesn’t know Guy. Allan’s played both sides of the game, they were friends, Allan’s seen what Guy had to deal with in Vasey’s shadow and the parts of Guy that with some nurturing could be turned into a good man. Granted Allan wasn’t against Guy here, but I wanted so much more. However his interactions with John were awesome, and not just because it was finally a substantial Allan scene this season. I’m so glad Allan went after John, after being such a quiet presence on the show this year he got to be the voice of the family instead of the voice of decent like he’s been in years past. Of course I wish we’d seen more of him this year as he grew into that role, but it makes sense that he is now (as much as it can without seeing more than flashes of the development).
I really have no problem with Kate’s anger at Guy, it makes total sense, and really I wish it hadn’t disappeared so easily at a few words from Robin. Yes Kate played a big role in getting her brother killed, but Guy was the one who stabbed Matthew and he didn’t *have* to. I may be one of the bigger Guy apologists around but I don’t expect him to be easily forgiven for what he’s done even if I can understand most of it from my perspective. But it’s consistent with Kate’s characterization the last few episodes (though not her first few eps) that she listened to Robin talk her down and then decided to go along with it even if she didn’t trust or forgive Guy. Now I’d say this could lead to an interesting dynamic, but I really don’t have enough confidence to say that.
Not enough Much, but I’m kind of hoping that’s got an in character reason that he’s kind of pulling away from the gang after his aborted leaving a couple eps ago (but only a couple days ago in the show) and possibly leaving again. But John was the one who actually tried to leave this episode; but he was just angry, and understandably so because Robin was asking an awful lot for them to trust Gisborne with no prep time. But what was behind Much leaving was more than just a newfound problem with Kate asking him to put his own feeling aside so she could be with Robin, that was bad enough, but with the pattern of being put aside by those he cares for most…he needs someone to talk to about it minimum and as much as I still ship Robin/Much a part of me thinks he needs to get out of that abusive relationship.
And I still love Izzy. I certainly don’t think she’s actually the enemy yet. Yeah she’s against Robin, but we haven’t seen her mistreating the people of Nottingham. Guy’s got his personal reasons for wanting her dead, but I have no idea what’s going through everyone else’s minds. At least it’s consistent for Kate to hate Izzy, even if it makes even less sense now that Robin has “seen [Izzy] for what she is.” And she’s clearly got reason to be paranoid since her enemies are even uniting against her it appears (she knows better than most how much Robin and Guy hate each other). Her and Archer should be an interesting meeting, another brother for her to be paranoid of but he’ll probably play her like a fiddle.
Lastly, if Vasey doesn’t show up during the last couple episodes then I’m really going to questions why they had him be alive anyway. I already think the twitchy finger ruined any surprise his return from the grave would have had (except for the reactions for the other characters), but if he then *doesn’t* come back it’s just dumb.
So, way too long, but there it is, bring on next week.