Re: Doctor "killing" Ganger AmyjblumJune 1 2011, 16:23:47 UTC
Yeah, that's what I had in mind when I talked about "getting the consciousness-related bugs out" -- Amy's ganger is clearly being driven around by the mind of actual Amy, she's not independent.
But even then, it's still arguable whether the non-self-aware Flesh is still aware on some level. After all, the Doctor was picking up its sense of "Why?", as Jennifer described. It might be worth thinking about destroying Gangers not as murder, but as something like cruelty to animals.
Or, it might not. Like I said, murky. And I kind of like that...
Re: Doctor "killing" Ganger AmydavecwJune 1 2011, 20:38:08 UTC
In my view the Doctor did not kill ganger Amy because ganger Amy wasn't alive. Ganger Amy was not an indepently operating duplicate but a duplicate that remotely linked to and being controlled by the original Amy's consciousness.The only problem with this argument is that this is exactly how Cleaves, Buzzer, Jen et al viewed their own pre-solar storm gangers, as duplcates being controlled by their own consciousness, as channelled by the rigs that they had to climb into. The opening scenes of the story last week make it clear that that Buzzer knew what had happened to his ganger without it having to be reported to him. So there was a functioning link
( ... )
Re: Doctor "killing" Ganger Amydaibhid_cJune 2 2011, 14:48:35 UTC
Later on it was important for ganger Jen to show Rory the discards, or de-commissioned, or executed, (the term which ganger Jen employed) gangers, just lying in a heap. This was emphasised by the Doctor's semi-ranting comments to Amy that he could feel the way they did when they were de-commissioned, and the aching need to know why.
All of which tends to suggest that the previous gangers were exactly the same as the post-solar storm gangers, with the only exception being that after the solar storm the originals didn't need to be plugged in anymore.That's a rather huge difference though; the previous gangers were directly controlled by the minds of the originals, and the post-storm ones ... aren't. They are self-aware. The Flesh is a living thing, and can probably feel pain, and it's good the company is going to treat it humanely, but is it intelligent before it "downloads" the personalities of its users
( ... )
(Even the "you can't fake a burn" bit is a careful bit of misdirection -- the audience flashes back to Ganger Cleaves failing to notice that the plate is burning hot in part one, and is primed to accept this as a solution: a classic case of rigging Chekov's Gun to backfire on you.)
Albeit one that we should have seen coming, due to seeing Ganger Jennifer with the limp.
The really interesting, ignoring the wider context of the series, part of this one to me was that Ganger Jennifer, the only character to consciously and deliberately create a sapient lifeform specifically in order to kill it, was the character who delivered the "Who are the real monsters?" line. One of the humans it would have been a self realization, any other ganger would have been a cutting remark... Ganger Jennifer? Illustrates that at this point she's operating on pure hypocracy.
We're told that Amy hasn't been herself for a "long long time". I'm a wee bit shaky on this and will have to go back and re-watch -- but that "long long time" could mean anything. We don't know really how long things went on. We're told explicitly that Amy & the Doctor have been traveling together for a pretty long time, but how much of that time memory survived the universal reboot done in Big Bang? How much of their post-big-bang adventures have we seen or not seen? IIRC it's about two years later when they meet Stetson Eleven in the desert and he gets killed.
Other thing I just realized: Fez Eleven gave Stetson Eleven his Sonic. Which means he needs a new one. Which may well look like the one he gave River. (Or not; I need a whiteboard to work out the River/Doctor chronology.)
2. Lots of opportunities for Amy to have been replaced -- starting in 5.1 (ELEVENTH HOUR) when the Doctor mistakes.
I gave this one some thought and I believe that when Amy told the Doctor that she was pregnant and the end of TIA, then we were dealing with the original Amy. At some point after that, and before she told the Doctor that she was mistaken, i.e. during TDotM, she had been replaced.
FWIW it's two *months*, not two *years*, since Amy and Rory have last seen the Doctor. Which fits with the idea that she's concerned that she might have gotten pregnant in the TARDIS!
And the Doctor seems to have an infinite number of sonics -- he gives one to his ganger, and then has it again inside the TARDIS when he uses it on Amy! (Probably he just popped a fresh one out of the console, as in "Eleventh Hour". Also explains how he got it back after it was eaten in "Christmas Carol"...)
On the subject of interesting points which ignore the wider context of the series... did anyone notice that when Cleaves contacted her HQ to request that they be picked-up, she explained that their gangers had gone crazy and also required de-commissioning, and that no one at the other end appeared to bat an eyelid? As though this was actually a far more regular occurrence that we'd been led to believe? (There was reference to a rumour about the Isle of Sheppey last week)
What can you say? Nestene Consciousness, wrong time, wrong place (grin)
Yeah, that's been kind of my thought -- the Flesh is essentially living plastic and the Nestene have been a recurring villain and this WOULD be a new take on them.
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But even then, it's still arguable whether the non-self-aware Flesh is still aware on some level. After all, the Doctor was picking up its sense of "Why?", as Jennifer described. It might be worth thinking about destroying Gangers not as murder, but as something like cruelty to animals.
Or, it might not. Like I said, murky. And I kind of like that...
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All of which tends to suggest that the previous gangers were exactly the same as the post-solar storm gangers, with the only exception being that after the solar storm the originals didn't need to be plugged in anymore.That's a rather huge difference though; the previous gangers were directly controlled by the minds of the originals, and the post-storm ones ... aren't. They are self-aware. The Flesh is a living thing, and can probably feel pain, and it's good the company is going to treat it humanely, but is it intelligent before it "downloads" the personalities of its users ( ... )
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Albeit one that we should have seen coming, due to seeing Ganger Jennifer with the limp.
The really interesting, ignoring the wider context of the series, part of this one to me was that Ganger Jennifer, the only character to consciously and deliberately create a sapient lifeform specifically in order to kill it, was the character who delivered the "Who are the real monsters?" line. One of the humans it would have been a self realization, any other ganger would have been a cutting remark... Ganger Jennifer? Illustrates that at this point she's operating on pure hypocracy.
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[SCRATCHES HEAD] She's being governed by medical instruments? Ah! No, she's being under-governed, I see...
[AWARDS SELF A PEDANT-POINT] =:o}
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We're told that Amy hasn't been herself for a "long long time". I'm a wee bit shaky on this and will have to go back and re-watch -- but that "long long time" could mean anything. We don't know really how long things went on. We're told explicitly that Amy & the Doctor have been traveling together for a pretty long time, but how much of that time memory survived the universal reboot done in Big Bang? How much of their post-big-bang adventures have we seen or not seen? IIRC it's about two years later when they meet Stetson Eleven in the desert and he gets killed.
Other thing I just realized: Fez Eleven gave Stetson Eleven his Sonic. Which means he needs a new one. Which may well look like the one he gave River. (Or not; I need a whiteboard to work out the River/Doctor chronology.)
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I gave this one some thought and I believe that when Amy told the Doctor that she was pregnant and the end of TIA, then we were dealing with the original Amy. At some point after that, and before she told the Doctor that she was mistaken, i.e. during TDotM, she had been replaced.
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And the Doctor seems to have an infinite number of sonics -- he gives one to his ganger, and then has it again inside the TARDIS when he uses it on Amy! (Probably he just popped a fresh one out of the console, as in "Eleventh Hour". Also explains how he got it back after it was eaten in "Christmas Carol"...)
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What can you say? Nestene Consciousness, wrong time, wrong place (grin)
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