A rant: In no way to be considered an Essay

[jaysummers]

Before you read what I'm about to read, please take note of the following link:

A Rapist's View of the World: Joss Whedon and Firefly.The following author is kind enough to articulate this as a rant, so I am doing the same. I will not cite my opinions as well-researched or as particularly poignant. This is not an essay and should not be

Comments

[idemandjustice]

First off, I did read her essay and utterly disagree with everything she said in it, pretty much.

However, as much as I hate giving this crazy person any credibility, I disagree with you about prostitution not being rape. I'll explain why, in short. Coercion is considered rape. The thing is, in the real, modern world (which is not the same as Inara, or Phedre in the Kushiel series either, obviously), most women (with the occasional exception that is rather rare but often very loud-mouthed) really don't choose to be prostitutes. They wind up there because they don't have any other options, which makes them unwilling. Which makes it rape, by my definition, and the law's at least in theory (since they do define coercion as a factor) if they bothered to care, which they typically don't. I hope you're not offended, because that's really not my intent. And I really don't find what Inara does to be remotely the same, seeing as she has so many luxuries and freedoms that real-world prostitutes don't. And to call Joss a rapist because of what he writes? That's just utterly sick.

I hope you're not offended by my comment... I know you were offended by her rant, and I'm right there with you on most of it.

[akumadaimyo]

Courtesans are NOT prostitutes though. They don't have to have sex. At least that's wha I've heard about them. Perhaps in Firefly that's not true but I know I've had this argument with ignorant people's about Geisha since I know a lot about them and am interested in Japanese things.

Also exactly how is it rape with someone you pay? Since when do they lose the ability to say no? Unless they have some asshole pimp smacking them around they can say no after all. Even if you pay someone they should still be able to say no.

That feminist chick seems like a raving nutjob to me. I'm sorry but it seems like if a man does not bow and scrape and treat a women with walk on eggshells level of politeness then he must hate women! Jesus. I hate some people who are women but I don't hate them because they are women I hate them cause they are assholes. They just happen to be female. *Shrug*

[idemandjustice]

On courtesans, geishas, etc, we agree. I was trying to make a distinction there. Sorry if I didn't manage it very well.

And for others, I would argue that when it's a choice between getting to eat or not, that falls under coercion. Not to mention, as you said, the likelihood of getting smacked around by some pimp.

Yeah, people like her are why so many people think feminists are crazy man-haters. I think that most of the things she said were not only ludicrous but utterly disgusting. And my husband does not rape me, I don't give a shit what she thinks.

Does that make my position clearer for you? :)

[akumadaimyo]

Hmm, I still wouldn't say coercion like needing to eat is rape. They can still say no. The poster has NO clue about Inara's concept at all. It's based a lot in Indian culture too. (The Hindu kind, not the Native American kind). I find the idea of me getting horny thinking about a woman to be rape is just idiotic. As I stated my gf likes watching me shave. So I guess she's a rapist? Oh and I told my gf about this nutjob. She said she'd throttle her if she could. Guess she hates women too? *rolls eyes*

[idemandjustice]

Hmm, I still wouldn't say coercion like needing to eat is rape.

In my mind, though, the threat of starvation is just as bad as the threat of violence. They're not exactly the same, but pretty dire, and puts one in a position that while they can technically say no (and one can technically say no even with a gun pointed at them), there's still not a real choice there.

I agree that she doesn't get Inara. And... I also just don't understand how getting horny thinking about your SO is rape... isn't that necessary for a healthy sexual relationship? I'm with you on that.

[jaysummers]

The problem with the need to eat issue is that it's not man necessarily forcing himself on the woman in this regard. In the situation of a pimp or otherwise a way in which there is no way for a woman to escape prostitution (which is common in today's society) I'm completely behind you. On the issue of needing the money, it's still the woman's choice to take that route as compared to seeking help at local shelters or other humanitarian aid. I'm not saying the system's perfect by any means, and I feel it's unfortunate that some people find they have no other alternative, but I still don't see that as rape.

For the most part, though, I'm on the same page as you.

[katsudon]

I think that's a very valid point about prostitution in general, but for her to make it in Inara's case is rather disingenuous considering that it is made crystal clear in the show that she is in no way coerced. (And here I though feminism was about giving women [and men!] the freedom to choose whether we liked their choices or not...) So she's taking what could be a very valid point and completely shooting her own argument by making it involving a case that is non-supportive of that argument.

I think the line that needs to be drawn here is not if a woman is a prostitute or not; it's if she wants to be one or not, or whether she was coerced to be one or not. But I also tend to think that prostitution should be legalized in America, because making it illegal certainly hasn't caused the "oldest profession" to go away, and were it legal, the women would have more options when it came to defending themselves from coercion... which I guess in crazy lady's definition would make me pro-prostitution and therefore not feminist. -.- It's a rougher issue in third-world countries, I think, because women face even worse financial and social pressures than they do here, but that's a whole other ball of wax...

[idemandjustice]

Let's see, I had a really bad night, will post about it soon, don't know how intelligible I will sound.

First paragraph, you're right. As far as legalizing it, I don't really know what the right solution would be, because I don't know what could be done for the women who are kidnapped and sold into it and how it would help them. Not that treating them like criminals helps them either. I just don't know.

[katsudon]

I think with the kidnapping/slavery, it'd have to be two pronged thing. On one end, you decriminalize (for the women) it so if the women can get away, they don't get treated like criminals. And then there's a whole lot of social stuff that goes with that, since just because you aren't treated as a criminal by law doesn't mean you won't be treated as a criminal by yours peers. (grrrr...) And on the other end, there's the basic safety issue that everyone faces, which is just how to keep people from being abducted in general.

I don't know if legalization would help or hurt the sexual slavery trade. Because if prostitution were legal, maybe there'd be a greater demand, but on the other hand it would presumably be regulated, which would make illegal activity like that so much harder to hide...

[jaysummers]

Bah, I'm not offended. :P I'm offended by the way she trivialized the word "rape." A woman coerced into prostitution is a different story, just like any woman forced to have sex against her will. The thing is that it isn't prostitution by its nature itself that makes it rape. As you comment, not every woman, even in modern day society, is forced into prostitution. Like Katsu comments below, many of the problems come because prostitution is illegal...but that's another argument entirely. XD

We're both on the same page here that Inara, however, is not being raped, and calling any act of choosing to receive money for sex rape without regard to the woman's choices and coercion involved cheapens the word and does no service to the true victims of rape.