Joss Whedon, his body of work, and Feminism. OK, Go! :)

Jul 22, 2013 19:18

I originally planned to have a private discussion with a friend regarding the place where Feminism and Joss Whedon's body of work, specifically his characters, intersect/overlap (or don't intersect/overlap as the case may be). We both thought it might be more interesting to have that discussion here where more people could comment on the topic. I'm ( Read more... )

Leave a comment

clevermanka July 23 2013, 15:12:21 UTC
Sorry, bb! I must've taken you off my F-list when you didn't post for, like, five years. So I didn't see this.

My beef with Whedon and his Strong Female Characters is that, one, they kind of really aren't (strong, that is), and I'm not entirely certain Whedon actually understands feminism. Or if he does understand it, I don't think he is one. He seems a little too interested in either setting women on a pedestal or tearing them down--or both at the same time.

You know I'm coming from this having not seen Buffy. And honestly, as much as I adore you, I'm not sure I ever will be able to watch it. For one, there's just SO MUCH of it, and for two, I've read too many articles like this one that make me go NO THANK YOU.

That article also points out the horrible issues with Firefly. Issues that I noticed while I was watching the show. I hated the mixed messages regarding the way Inara was (theoretically) written with how she actually behaved and was treated. I hated Kaylee's increasingly grating magical chipperness which bordered on her being a Manic Pixie Dream Girl. In the show, Zoe was fucking awesome. No complaints, there. I didn't have complaints about Zoe until Serenity.

The eyeroll-worthy treatment of the female love interest in Dr. Horrible doesn't really need explaining, does it?

There is no way in hell I will watch Dollhouse, for what I feel should be obvious reasons. ENOUGH WITH THE PROSTITUTE THING, JOSS.

He even managed to get a bit of misogyny into the script of Avengers for godssake. Loki manipulates or outright fights everyone in that movie, but who's the only one gets called out with a gendered insult? The woman.

All of that said, I would have no problems with him, personally, if he didn't tout himself as a feminist. God knows I watch (and love) a lot of problematic shows: Supernatural, the Star Trek reboot movies, Sherlock. I love the entire Fast and the Furious franchise for godssake. So I'm not saying that Joss's shows can't be appreciated for what they are. I'm saying it irritates the shit out of me when Whedon is heralded as some sort of standard for feminist writing. Because HE ISN'T.

If you want more arguments from both sides, here is a whole slew of articles about Whedon and feminism.

Reply

jayhuck July 23 2013, 15:24:12 UTC
Another thing that might actually help this discussion is to come to an understanding of what feminism is. There seem to be so many definitions of it out in cyberspace it leads me to wonder just how different people might define it. It might be best to have a working definition though ;)

Reply

clevermanka July 23 2013, 15:27:47 UTC
I don't think anyone can define feminism since it does mean different things to different people. Some people think men can't be feminists, for example.

But I think we can both agree what feminism is not, and that would be things that pretend to build up women but in actuality and practice undermine the portrayal of them as strong and capable.

Reply

jayhuck July 23 2013, 15:37:10 UTC
I think we can actually agree on that :) I think our opinions might differ on whether or not a particular "thing" truly undermines a particular character. But yes we can definitely agree on this

Reply

jayhuck July 23 2013, 15:28:41 UTC
Are you saying then that the gendered insult completely overrides any of the many other qualities that might make that woman a strong individual?

Reply

clevermanka July 23 2013, 15:54:31 UTC
I'm not saying it overrides it, and I'm not saying that those characters aren't strong despite the problems. I'm saying that by including that, Joss Whedon fails at being a feminist writer.

Edit: I'm not arguing characterizations here, I'm explaining why I am sick to tears of people saying Joss Whedon is awesome because he's a feminist writer and gets lauded for writing strong female characters.

Reply

jayhuck July 23 2013, 16:03:19 UTC
But you are saying, and correct me if I'm wrong here because this seems to be the case, that he is still able to write strong female characters? It sounds as if you believe he can write strong female characters as their good qualities may override their bad and leave them being perceived as strong, but that he's not a feminist because of the way he has allowed them to be torn down to some degree?

Reply

clevermanka July 23 2013, 16:06:13 UTC
I'm saying he is capable of writing them, yes. Does he fail more times than not? Yes. Does he consistently undermine his own attempts? Yes. Is that annoying as fuck? Yes.

he can write strong female characters as their good qualities may override their bad and leave them being perceived as strong, but that he's not a feminist because of the way he has allowed them to be torn down

Bingo! And his tendency to throw in those gotchas are what eliminate him from my List of Possibly Feminist Writers.

Reply

jayhuck July 23 2013, 19:10:06 UTC
BTW, this is completely off-topic, but I found and read the story of Clever Manka last night. What a good story :)

Reply

clevermanka July 23 2013, 19:18:38 UTC
She's pretty awesome. Tricksy little minx.

Reply


Leave a comment

Up
[]