The female-character-centric TV show fandom isn't watching

[jaybee65]

Since there has been a wee bit of discussion, ohhhhh somewhere around fandom lately, about the dearth (or not) of interesting female characters in popular media, it seems timely to talk about my current favorite show, Damages: a show that not only is about two complex, intelligent female characters (and passes that much-bandied-about-lately

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[jaybee65]

Lily Tomlin has already proven elsewhere that she has drama chops, but Ted Danson was a revelation. Martin Short, too -- I haaaaaate him as a comedian, but he's perfect for this role (so far)! I was impressed by how creepy Darrell Hammond was last season (although I still halfway expect a Bill Clinton imitation every time I see him onscreen).

As for the lack of interesting female characters...yet another argument on the topic has broken out in various places across LJ/Dreamwidth. You could go back through old metafandom posts for the past couple of weeks and piece it together, but I don't recommend the aggravation.

I think Damages would be a small fandom even with male leads, but it probably would be at least marginally larger. It wasn't even included in Yuletide until I nominated it! And yes, I do think it's because it's about two women: ergo, no real potential for m/m slash, and frankly very little potential even for het. All the male characters are supporting cast. Without at least one hot male lead...no fandom interest. Or at least that's my gut sense.

The men-in-refrigerators thing really struck me at the end of this episode. I've racked my brains trying to think if any other series has ever reversed the stereotype this way, but I'm not coming up with any other examples.

[madamedarque]

But is it really a matter of women not being interested in a show unless there's a hot male character? Why aren't women (or fandom, because for me the two are interchangeable) interested in women? As I said before in my overly verbose comment, I can't imagine watching a show without women in it. But I can watch a show without men. Am I weird? I appreciate attractive men as much as anyone else, and I love my het, but there doesn't *have* to be men. There always has to be women.

And regarding men-in-refrigerators: I too can't think of any show that has reversed the stereotype. There is a certain patriarichal aspect to the tradtional women-getting-killed; just look at the horror genre. A staple of the horror film is the beautiful young virgin getting murdered in some gruesome way, usually for the enjoyment of the 18-24 year old male that the entertainment industry so covets. I don't really think there's a market for that in reverse. I certainly don't get any erotic enjoyment out of watching handsome men getting their limbs chopped off. (Not that I speak for all women.)So maybe that's why we don't see the stereotype reversed. Of course, I may be giving them too much credit...

[jaybee65]

Am I weird?

Just judging by the kinds of statements I see in fandom, you're in a minority. (I feel the same way, though.)

And the women-in-refrigerators thing appears to be a common technique in a lot of shows/books/movies/comics: kill off a female character who is important/close to a male character in order to (a) drive the plot (e.g., the male character now has to seek revenge against the villain who killed her, or whatever); (b) provide characterization for the male character (oh, now he is so angsty!); and (c) provide shock value.

Sometimes it can be a male character who is killed off (e.g., the cop's partner) in this way, but this show is the first I've ever come across that *completely* reverses things: not only is it men being killed, but in order to drive a plot about/provide character depth to women!

[madamedarque]

Oh yeah, that's what has always bothered me about most mainstream entertainment. Women aren't people; they're plot devices or eye candy. Ugh. But I suppose that's why we like Damages so much. I think that they definitely pay in viewers for reversing stereotypes; I bet it makes some men feel threatened. Not to mention how overwhelmingly female-centric the show is in general.

While I'm here, I thought I'd ask you: I'm working on (gasp!) an LFN thing, for the two people who would read it. It's an Adrian character study set during the years of her "exile"; from the coup to her unsuccessful attempt to destroy Section. I would love it if you would beta, because I know you've done some thinking about the character, and I want to make sure I get it right. Not to mention that you're pretty much the only LFN fan on my flist. LOL.

[jaybee65]

Adrian fic!!!!!!!

I cannot wait to see this! And of course I would be thrilled to beta!

[madamedarque]

Great! You should get something in your inbox at some point during the next few days. Thanks so much. :)

[labellamafia494]

Butting in here, re: fandom involvement. I haven't seen the rest of season one yet, but based on the first few episodes, the writing is *so* tightly paced, plotted and, well, fantastic that fangirls don't seem to need to write their own backstory to either fill in the blanks or "mend" something in the canon. The "daunting" argument also rings true to me. Not to mention, as much as I love the characters (already) the show still feels plot-driven. Not in a derogatory way, but it feels more like a mini-series unfolding than a "season." Maybe that's the cable format talking! Patty's son's arc is the only aspect that I feel is tacked on for obligatory character development. However...what do I know? Perhaps in a few episodes I'll discover he was involved in more ways than one. ;)

Likewise, other male-centric well written cable shows (or so I've been told) like Sons of Anarchy don't have a big fandom per say. What about Big Love?

Cracky shows like LFN practically *beg* you to write Madeline and Ops' backstory and develop their relationship on your own since TPTB won't do it, or will just throw in something senseless. *We* make them more awesome than they are, if that makes any sense.

Britain's Bad Girls was almost entirely female driven - it does take place in a women's prison, after all - with the slash becoming text for many pairings. Huge, huge fandom there. Interestingly, I don't know if it would have developed such a following had the subtext stayed subtext. "Textually Lesbian" fandoms a la Otalia is another discussion altogether...I'll never know why they have some of the most terrible fic. And I'm saying this as a big ol' gay myself!

Allllright that was enough rambling on for tonight. Back to Patty's machinations...I LOVE IT. Already.

[madamedarque]

Oh, no worries about butting in. I love to have a good discussion. :)And I'm so jealous that you're watching Damages for the first time. I remember how exhilarated I was when I first started watching.

I agree with you that the writing on Damages is so over-the-top fantastic that there's nothing to fix. I concur that a large motivation for writing fanfic is wanting to fix continuity gaps, and there is certainly no reason to do that with Damages. However, I don't entirely buy the argument that the writing is the *only* reason why Damages doesn't have a large fandom (or any fandom to speak of). Because for me, fixing continuity isn't the only reason I write fanfic. I can think of at least two other reasons to write fic, all of which rank higher to me than fixing continuity:

1. BACKSTORY!!! I think Damages, and Patty especially, just begs us to write this. How did she become the person she was?
2. Character Development. You mentioned how Damages is more plot-focused and like a mini-series, which I agree with. But personally, a plot-driven show inspires me to write character study-type things, because the writers didn't go there. I want to "fill in the gaps", so to speak.

This all convinces me that there is more going on than people just being intimidated to write fic. I think there must be some other reason that people don't respond fannishly to Damages. (Not wanting to watch shows about women? Or as Jaybee said, not wanting to watch a show where there are no hot males?)

Re: male-driven shows; I can't comment on Big Love, but I always thought that Sons of Anarchy had a fairly large fandom. Not huge, but it's there. In any case, both of these shows have more of a fandom than Damages does. I haven't heard of Bad Girls, but are you saying all of the preferred pairings are femslash? That's interesting. Because femslash has always been a bit ghettoized in fandom...

Oh yes, I absolutely agree about LFN. It was *perfect* for fanfic writing. No continuity, some rather contradictory/ludicrous backstories, and not a lot of character development. I think a lot of my seeking out LFN fic came from TPTB mistreating my favorite characters (Madeline and Ops), and so I felt compelled to "make them more awesome", as you said.

But you like LFN? Can I friend you? I'm starved for like-minded people in that regard. :)

[jaybee65]

Cracky shows like LFN practically *beg* you to write Madeline and Ops' backstory and develop their relationship on your own since TPTB won't do it, or will just throw in something senseless. *We* make them more awesome than they are, if that makes any sense.

Oh, absolutely! Madeline and Operations almost *need* us to intervene to rescue them from all the stupid and senseless things that the show did. Patty Hewes doesn't need any of our help, thank-you-very-much! ;-)

But I mostly threw out Damages as a response to all the people who have been arguing all over LJ recently that it's soooo impossible to find any TV shows that pass the Bechdel test, and that's why they can't write female characters! Because sorry, here's a show that passes with flying colors. It's just that they aren't watching that show. Or apparently any of the others with female characters who interact with each other. It's not like these shows are all *that* hard to find -- if someone wants to. And that's the real issue, to me -- some people just don't *want* to watch/write about female characters. I wish they would just admit that instead of finding excuses why they would, if only they could, but gosh, it's just so haaaard, blah blah blah. (Er, anyway, I'm ranting, but it's not actually aimed at you. Sorry!)

The textually lesbian issue has puzzled me. I'm not sure why it seems to be so focused in that way, unlike m/m. But you're right, that's another topic for another day.

[madamedarque]

Operations and Madeline need our help, LOL. I'm *still* shuddering from the Sex Police storyline. Why, God, why?

So people don't want to watch Damages because they don't want to watch female characters? But...why? Women are fascinating. Why on Earth would you not want to write about them? I guess that's what I've been trying to figure out for myself in this post--and in other posts as well. Is it sexism? Just not "liking" female characters? That argument doesn't work at all for me, because as you stated above, it's an excuse. It's possible that I'm too stuck in my own overwhelmingly female-centric character preferences, but to me disliking all female characters just on principle is very silly. Not to mention a bit disturbing. :(

[labellamafia494]

But I mostly threw out Damages as a response to all the people who have been arguing all over LJ recently that it's soooo impossible to find any TV shows that pass the Bechdel test
Snerk. I hope that stopped the convo. *rolls eyes at them*

The textually lesbian issue has puzzled me. I'm not sure why it seems to be so focused in that way, unlike m/m

I presume it's because most of those fandoms are composed of "real" queer women who mostly or only watch textually gay material and don't interact in fandom otherwise. L Word, South of Nowhere, Bad Girls, Sugar Rush, Otalia...etc. Terrible, terrible fic and a weird reticence to criticize the source text. As if it could perennially be excused for being utter shit because it "gave us lesbians."
You'd think there'd be more of a following since The L Word and Bad Girls gave us a slew of strong and interesting women - ok, maybe only two or three in TLW. Not to mention it wrote itself into a hole by the end of season two and never recovered, even in its fluffy crack-filled last two seasons.

otherwise, cracky LotS has a budding fandom which seems more inclined to write and picspam Cara/Kahlan than the canonical Richard/K. Squee!

Almost done with Damages S1. GUH.

last note - someone posted an entry about how women in their forties have room for their characters to develop in soaps. It was quite interesting. Gotta find it again.