The female-character-centric TV show fandom isn't watching
Since there has been a wee bit of discussion, ohhhhh somewhere around fandom lately, about the dearth (or not) of interesting female characters in popular media, it seems timely to talk about my current favorite show, Damages: a show that not only is about two complex, intelligent female characters (and passes that much-bandied-about-lately
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Yes on the casting-comedy-actors-as-dramatic thing. I always hated Ted Danson, but I thought he was wonderful on the show. Darrell Hammond was a little less successful for me, if only because I thought he was about to make a joke in every scene. Lily Tomlin, though, gets an A. I think she's made me love her even more than I already did. And the "not particularly sharp" comment...I nearly chocked on my popcorn.
Didn't you just love the Patty/Ellen bathroom scene? It was so subtle, from Patty putting on her lipstick to the "you can just call". Lots of femslashy vibes there. And I love your idea about them being mirror images of each other, and that they're bound together because of that. As I think about it, the show definitely tries to show that with the juxtaposition of the images in the opening credits--it's like they're two sides of the same coin.
So, where exactly is this discussion about the lack of interesting female characters? Is it being talked about like it's a recent phenomenon? Because honestly, I've found that the interesting female characters have always been a rare species, and that's certainly not unique to 2010-2011 tv season. If anything, we're doing better than we've done in the past 20 years or so. I think there is a place on cable (particularly HBO, but FX as well) for female characters who are over 3o and have, you know, personalities. But I don't know if cable qualifies as mainstream or not.
Also, do you think that Damages would have a larger fandom if it wasn't focused on women? Leaving aside the caveat about how good the writing is, which I do agree with, but there are other shows that had good writing--BSG for example, and I could probably think of others--that also had very active fandoms. So it must be more than that. I find it baffling that a group of women (which is what fandom is, generally) would not want to watch/interact with a show about women. Because personally, as a female, I'm only interested in a show if it has interesting women in it. I'm not trying to make generalizations here, but I thought that most women were like that as well. I guess not. I'm not even going to go into the lack of femslash in fandom, because that never made any sense to me either.
P.S. You do need to write that meta about why the men never die in a horribly gruesome way, because I'd really like to read your thoughts on the subject.
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As for the lack of interesting female characters...yet another argument on the topic has broken out in various places across LJ/Dreamwidth. You could go back through old metafandom posts for the past couple of weeks and piece it together, but I don't recommend the aggravation.
I think Damages would be a small fandom even with male leads, but it probably would be at least marginally larger. It wasn't even included in Yuletide until I nominated it! And yes, I do think it's because it's about two women: ergo, no real potential for m/m slash, and frankly very little potential even for het. All the male characters are supporting cast. Without at least one hot male lead...no fandom interest. Or at least that's my gut sense.
The men-in-refrigerators thing really struck me at the end of this episode. I've racked my brains trying to think if any other series has ever reversed the stereotype this way, but I'm not coming up with any other examples.
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And regarding men-in-refrigerators: I too can't think of any show that has reversed the stereotype. There is a certain patriarichal aspect to the tradtional women-getting-killed; just look at the horror genre. A staple of the horror film is the beautiful young virgin getting murdered in some gruesome way, usually for the enjoyment of the 18-24 year old male that the entertainment industry so covets. I don't really think there's a market for that in reverse. I certainly don't get any erotic enjoyment out of watching handsome men getting their limbs chopped off. (Not that I speak for all women.)So maybe that's why we don't see the stereotype reversed. Of course, I may be giving them too much credit...
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Just judging by the kinds of statements I see in fandom, you're in a minority. (I feel the same way, though.)
And the women-in-refrigerators thing appears to be a common technique in a lot of shows/books/movies/comics: kill off a female character who is important/close to a male character in order to (a) drive the plot (e.g., the male character now has to seek revenge against the villain who killed her, or whatever); (b) provide characterization for the male character (oh, now he is so angsty!); and (c) provide shock value.
Sometimes it can be a male character who is killed off (e.g., the cop's partner) in this way, but this show is the first I've ever come across that *completely* reverses things: not only is it men being killed, but in order to drive a plot about/provide character depth to women!
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While I'm here, I thought I'd ask you: I'm working on (gasp!) an LFN thing, for the two people who would read it. It's an Adrian character study set during the years of her "exile"; from the coup to her unsuccessful attempt to destroy Section. I would love it if you would beta, because I know you've done some thinking about the character, and I want to make sure I get it right. Not to mention that you're pretty much the only LFN fan on my flist. LOL.
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I cannot wait to see this! And of course I would be thrilled to beta!
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Likewise, other male-centric well written cable shows (or so I've been told) like Sons of Anarchy don't have a big fandom per say. What about Big Love?
Cracky shows like LFN practically *beg* you to write Madeline and Ops' backstory and develop their relationship on your own since TPTB won't do it, or will just throw in something senseless. *We* make them more awesome than they are, if that makes any sense.
Britain's Bad Girls was almost entirely female driven - it does take place in a women's prison, after all - with the slash becoming text for many pairings. Huge, huge fandom there. Interestingly, I don't know if it would have developed such a following had the subtext stayed subtext. "Textually Lesbian" fandoms a la Otalia is another discussion altogether...I'll never know why they have some of the most terrible fic. And I'm saying this as a big ol' gay myself!
Allllright that was enough rambling on for tonight. Back to Patty's machinations...I LOVE IT. Already.
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I agree with you that the writing on Damages is so over-the-top fantastic that there's nothing to fix. I concur that a large motivation for writing fanfic is wanting to fix continuity gaps, and there is certainly no reason to do that with Damages. However, I don't entirely buy the argument that the writing is the *only* reason why Damages doesn't have a large fandom (or any fandom to speak of). Because for me, fixing continuity isn't the only reason I write fanfic. I can think of at least two other reasons to write fic, all of which rank higher to me than fixing continuity:
1. BACKSTORY!!! I think Damages, and Patty especially, just begs us to write this. How did she become the person she was?
2. Character Development. You mentioned how Damages is more plot-focused and like a mini-series, which I agree with. But personally, a plot-driven show inspires me to write character study-type things, because the writers didn't go there. I want to "fill in the gaps", so to speak.
This all convinces me that there is more going on than people just being intimidated to write fic. I think there must be some other reason that people don't respond fannishly to Damages. (Not wanting to watch shows about women? Or as Jaybee said, not wanting to watch a show where there are no hot males?)
Re: male-driven shows; I can't comment on Big Love, but I always thought that Sons of Anarchy had a fairly large fandom. Not huge, but it's there. In any case, both of these shows have more of a fandom than Damages does. I haven't heard of Bad Girls, but are you saying all of the preferred pairings are femslash? That's interesting. Because femslash has always been a bit ghettoized in fandom...
Oh yes, I absolutely agree about LFN. It was *perfect* for fanfic writing. No continuity, some rather contradictory/ludicrous backstories, and not a lot of character development. I think a lot of my seeking out LFN fic came from TPTB mistreating my favorite characters (Madeline and Ops), and so I felt compelled to "make them more awesome", as you said.
But you like LFN? Can I friend you? I'm starved for like-minded people in that regard. :)
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Oh, absolutely! Madeline and Operations almost *need* us to intervene to rescue them from all the stupid and senseless things that the show did. Patty Hewes doesn't need any of our help, thank-you-very-much! ;-)
But I mostly threw out Damages as a response to all the people who have been arguing all over LJ recently that it's soooo impossible to find any TV shows that pass the Bechdel test, and that's why they can't write female characters! Because sorry, here's a show that passes with flying colors. It's just that they aren't watching that show. Or apparently any of the others with female characters who interact with each other. It's not like these shows are all *that* hard to find -- if someone wants to. And that's the real issue, to me -- some people just don't *want* to watch/write about female characters. I wish they would just admit that instead of finding excuses why they would, if only they could, but gosh, it's just so haaaard, blah blah blah. (Er, anyway, I'm ranting, but it's not actually aimed at you. Sorry!)
The textually lesbian issue has puzzled me. I'm not sure why it seems to be so focused in that way, unlike m/m. But you're right, that's another topic for another day.
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So people don't want to watch Damages because they don't want to watch female characters? But...why? Women are fascinating. Why on Earth would you not want to write about them? I guess that's what I've been trying to figure out for myself in this post--and in other posts as well. Is it sexism? Just not "liking" female characters? That argument doesn't work at all for me, because as you stated above, it's an excuse. It's possible that I'm too stuck in my own overwhelmingly female-centric character preferences, but to me disliking all female characters just on principle is very silly. Not to mention a bit disturbing. :(
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Snerk. I hope that stopped the convo. *rolls eyes at them*
The textually lesbian issue has puzzled me. I'm not sure why it seems to be so focused in that way, unlike m/m
I presume it's because most of those fandoms are composed of "real" queer women who mostly or only watch textually gay material and don't interact in fandom otherwise. L Word, South of Nowhere, Bad Girls, Sugar Rush, Otalia...etc. Terrible, terrible fic and a weird reticence to criticize the source text. As if it could perennially be excused for being utter shit because it "gave us lesbians."
You'd think there'd be more of a following since The L Word and Bad Girls gave us a slew of strong and interesting women - ok, maybe only two or three in TLW. Not to mention it wrote itself into a hole by the end of season two and never recovered, even in its fluffy crack-filled last two seasons.
otherwise, cracky LotS has a budding fandom which seems more inclined to write and picspam Cara/Kahlan than the canonical Richard/K. Squee!
Almost done with Damages S1. GUH.
last note - someone posted an entry about how women in their forties have room for their characters to develop in soaps. It was quite interesting. Gotta find it again.
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