Conservatives and Liberals
Jon: I need to go find my copy of "Capitalism and Freedom" by Milton Friedman. his introductory chapter basically spells it out.
Jon: for one, he says:
"The nineteenth-century liberal regarded an extension of freedom as the most effective way to promote to promote welfare and equality; the twentieth-century liberal regards welfare and equality as either prerequisites of or alternatives to freedom."
unrivaled apex: ok, that makes sense
Jon: conservatives are as the name implies, holding what is, no movement. a real conservative would today say "government is okay, let's no muck it up" while a real, genuine, pro-freedom liberal says "hell no, we need to fix things"
Jon: conservatives change nothing, liberals change something, but it's a matter of what they change, if they are pro-freedom or not.
Jon: modern liberal favor the state over the city, the federal (or even national) over the state and world government over national, they prefer centralized power controlled by "the people".
traditional liberals don't want centralized power no matter who controls it.
unrivaled apex: I see
Jon: hence a libertarian is really a traditional liberal and a modern liberal is nothing more than a socialist.
unrivaled apex: hahahaha
unrivaled apex: wow
unrivaled apex: people would be so pissed if they knew that. Or they'd shrug it off and put their heads in the sand
Jon: if you want the state to control everything, you're a statist. it's splitting hairs if you're a fascist or socialist because they're both authoritarian and totalitarian.
Jon: and they do.
Jon: I've said for a while that people calilng themselves "liberal" are generally socialists who won't admit or use the term while the far-right "neo-cons" are nothing more than fascists.
unrivaled apex: yeah, yeah
unrivaled apex: because they want to control everything in a sense, correct?
Jon: this is why we need to stear people away from using the terms how they do.
fascists want state control just to keep order because they know best for you, socialists at least claim state control through "the people" to make you all "equal"
unrivaled apex: so either way, they both want to control the state, it's just how they go about it. that makes them different
Jon: yep
Jon: now if only they taught you this stuff in high school
Jon: it's why you can't take civics courses in most universities now. they'll tell you why the state needs to control things. a good 90+% of government/civics/poli. sci. teachers are full-on marxists.
Jon: they tell you to dismiss Jefferson's ideas just because he owned slaves.
Jon: know what? so did people in the Bible; ass.
Jon: what people need to know is you keep your civics on one side and your personal morals on the other. too many "conservatives" are only conservative in the social sense, which is fine, but that doesn't give them the right to force everyone else into compliance.
unrivaled apex: My American Government teacher considers himself a moderate that leans slightly to the right.
unrivaled apex: I get called on a lot for the Libertarian view, because everyone else in the class considers him or herself republican
unrivaled apex: The prof once called the Libertarian party a special interests group, and that it wasn't really a valid party.
Jon: all parties are special interest groups.
Jon: it seems your prof's biggest problem so far is he's not so much pro-anything as reactionary and anti-left.
unrivaled apex: pretty much. Which, it seems every prof at my universary is like that. I guess it's because I go to a conservative Christian college or something
Jon: because they're letting their religious views bleed over and control everything else instead of thinking.
Jon: it doesn't matter if 1% or 99% of the people are in the true church of God, it's still true either way.
however, regardless of that truth, or its numbers, you can't force the other 99, or the other 1, to agree with you. God isn't about force and coercion.
Jon: your prof's go Republican first as a reaction of seeing the Democrats and all leftists as evil, second as a means of forcing everyone to their moral views.
unrivaled apex: yep yep
Jon: that's what most GOPers do.
Jon: just like many supposed Democrats join up simply because they hate the big corporate money of the Republican party. they have no civic principles, they're just driven by the image of social ideals.
Jon: for one, he says:
"The nineteenth-century liberal regarded an extension of freedom as the most effective way to promote to promote welfare and equality; the twentieth-century liberal regards welfare and equality as either prerequisites of or alternatives to freedom."
unrivaled apex: ok, that makes sense
Jon: conservatives are as the name implies, holding what is, no movement. a real conservative would today say "government is okay, let's no muck it up" while a real, genuine, pro-freedom liberal says "hell no, we need to fix things"
Jon: conservatives change nothing, liberals change something, but it's a matter of what they change, if they are pro-freedom or not.
Jon: modern liberal favor the state over the city, the federal (or even national) over the state and world government over national, they prefer centralized power controlled by "the people".
traditional liberals don't want centralized power no matter who controls it.
unrivaled apex: I see
Jon: hence a libertarian is really a traditional liberal and a modern liberal is nothing more than a socialist.
unrivaled apex: hahahaha
unrivaled apex: wow
unrivaled apex: people would be so pissed if they knew that. Or they'd shrug it off and put their heads in the sand
Jon: if you want the state to control everything, you're a statist. it's splitting hairs if you're a fascist or socialist because they're both authoritarian and totalitarian.
Jon: and they do.
Jon: I've said for a while that people calilng themselves "liberal" are generally socialists who won't admit or use the term while the far-right "neo-cons" are nothing more than fascists.
unrivaled apex: yeah, yeah
unrivaled apex: because they want to control everything in a sense, correct?
Jon: this is why we need to stear people away from using the terms how they do.
fascists want state control just to keep order because they know best for you, socialists at least claim state control through "the people" to make you all "equal"
unrivaled apex: so either way, they both want to control the state, it's just how they go about it. that makes them different
Jon: yep
Jon: now if only they taught you this stuff in high school
Jon: it's why you can't take civics courses in most universities now. they'll tell you why the state needs to control things. a good 90+% of government/civics/poli. sci. teachers are full-on marxists.
Jon: they tell you to dismiss Jefferson's ideas just because he owned slaves.
Jon: know what? so did people in the Bible; ass.
Jon: what people need to know is you keep your civics on one side and your personal morals on the other. too many "conservatives" are only conservative in the social sense, which is fine, but that doesn't give them the right to force everyone else into compliance.
unrivaled apex: My American Government teacher considers himself a moderate that leans slightly to the right.
unrivaled apex: I get called on a lot for the Libertarian view, because everyone else in the class considers him or herself republican
unrivaled apex: The prof once called the Libertarian party a special interests group, and that it wasn't really a valid party.
Jon: all parties are special interest groups.
Jon: it seems your prof's biggest problem so far is he's not so much pro-anything as reactionary and anti-left.
unrivaled apex: pretty much. Which, it seems every prof at my universary is like that. I guess it's because I go to a conservative Christian college or something
Jon: because they're letting their religious views bleed over and control everything else instead of thinking.
Jon: it doesn't matter if 1% or 99% of the people are in the true church of God, it's still true either way.
however, regardless of that truth, or its numbers, you can't force the other 99, or the other 1, to agree with you. God isn't about force and coercion.
Jon: your prof's go Republican first as a reaction of seeing the Democrats and all leftists as evil, second as a means of forcing everyone to their moral views.
unrivaled apex: yep yep
Jon: that's what most GOPers do.
Jon: just like many supposed Democrats join up simply because they hate the big corporate money of the Republican party. they have no civic principles, they're just driven by the image of social ideals.