good stuff

[jasonx10]

I'm probably the last person on the face of the planet to read it (or rather, audio-book it, as I needed something to listen to while driving), but I really like screwtape letters. It made me feel like im being incredibly lazy about ....pretty much everything faith related. I wish modern Christian writers would do more books like this. Christian

Comments

[triggertantrums]

so if you can't rely on the Holy Spirit, what is your solution?

i do agree with you jason, obviously we need to compare our "feelings" to the bible and what it says about guilt and sin and God's plan for dealing with them. But that, in my opinion, is a huge part of how the Holy Spirit interacts with us, through God's word. That's what makes reading and meditating on the bible so important. what i'm saying here is that we need the Bible, not modern day christian author's to hold us accountable. while their woks can be useful, i would be careful, they are still human and can mis-interpret God. also, it seems to me that God may not mean the same things for us all.

yes it is helpful to have accountability from others. however, from my own personnal expierences, i found sometimes it is easier to lie to someone then to tell them you screwed up again. though praying and confession to God is a stepping stone to confessing to other's, depending on the nature of the sin. since lying is a sin, it would only be through God's grace i could stop lying to be held accountable to someone else, therefore God's grace could just as easily remove the other sin.

i don't know if any of this is really making sense or communicating what i'm really trying to say but, it seems to me that most religions replace a real relationship with God with rituals and other things, in the end we are responsible for our actions and only God can forgive us.
anyway, for now my mind is kind of pooping out on me.

[ralphsink]

Modern Christian authors can misintrepret God, but each of us can misintrepret the Bible. So just reading the Bible is not a foolproof way of knowing what you are talking about.

Ok, so lying is a concern. Nobody said accountability is a cure-all.

We are all to be as much like Jesus as possible, in that way God wants the same thing for all of us. We may have different stratigies for getting there but the goal is the same. Nobody is saying accountibility can replace God's grace (though I think sacramental confession is a method God uses to impart grace). But it is a useful tool that often goes unused. Besides, whether you believe it a sacrament or not, the Bible tells us to confess our sins to each other. (James 5:16 - Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed.)

[triggertantrums]

"Modern Christian authors can misintrepret God, but each of us can misintrepret the Bible. So just reading the Bible is not a foolproof way of knowing what you are talking about."
it's definitely not fool-proof (that's what disscussions such as these are made for), but i would rather go straight to the source.
and again i'm not saying that christian literature is bad, just that there is an order of importance.
all things must be compared to the bible to be sure they are not false, i'm sure if i read it more, the bible has a verse that i could use here, but, well, i kind of need to heed my own advice.

[jasonx10]

Yep, I know authors can misinterpret the bible. If you read Screwtape letters however, you'll find that the book is an artistic chastisement of humanity's reluctance to acknowledge demonic opposition to man/God and how it undermines God's will for humanity. The vast majority of what is written can be held up to biblical scrutiny and uses biblical principles to convey the same warnings against sins discussed in the bible, merely in a different light, an artistic one that's a little more applicable to our culture. The book certainly is not the bible. I just think it makes some really great strong points. Most people (myself included) just don't do a good job of acknowledging a spiritual battle to the point that it affects their every-day living habits.

I agree that a relationship with God is ultimately the most important thing, but if every Christian in the world disallowed guidance from one or more other Christians and assumed that he/she was tight enough with God that the holy spirit would make them feel what is right and wrong simply by reading scripture, a lot of people would miss out on the context of scripture. A lot of people would be lacking knowledge of church history, Jewish history, Greek history, whatever else they need to assist in accurately understanding the bible. The point is that any slackness in pursuing a relationship with God can lead to misinterpretation, which ultimately leads (generations later) to people picking/choosing which biblical interpretations they want to adopt (which ones suit their agenda). It just seems like a slippery slope to me. We already see a lot of it.

[ralphsink]

Yeah, and besides, it's not like the Bible is a complete resource of everything useful for a Christian to know or think about.

There is a danger with accountability though. It can become "my temptation to sin vs. my pride" - in many cases pride is the worse sin.

[triggertantrums]

"Yeah, and besides, it's not like the Bible is a complete resource of everything useful for a Christian to know or think about."

yeah...i'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you there, micheal.

if you are reading things by christain authors and they are not based on biblical principles i would have to say that is a problem. it may be a personnal opinion about one thing or another, but it should still be able to stand up to the what the bible says on the subject. you can't just make stuff about God out of nowhere, well, unless your that guy who started to mormon religion.

[ralphsink]

Where in the Bible does it say that the only things that are useful to know are in the Bible?

There are two main reasons why "just me & the Bible" Christianity doesn't work. First, because it leaves a person with no answer to the question "why do I believe what I believe about the Bible?" Second, because the Bible itself talks about the importance of the Church.

As far as what preachers or Christian authors say: by all means compare it to scripture. If something contradicts scripture, its definately wrong. If something says the same thing as scripture, its definately right. But not everything falls into one of those two categories. There are topics that the Bible doesn't directly address (but to which its principles can be applied) and there are topics it doesn't talk about at all.

[triggertantrums]

okay. i never said anything about "just me and the bible". if i thought all i needed was the bible, i wouldn't waste time with discussions like these.
nor was i knocking the importance of the church. we are the church, you, me and jason, right now, having this discussion. the collection of believers is the church. we are comparing views and thoughts, and hopefully we will all grow and learn from this. that's what church is.

the bible teaches us principles for how to live to please God. the bible also says that God will never allow us to face anything that He can't help us through, and the bible is our best connection to the will of God, how can you say that that won't teach us everything we need? yes other people and other books can help us see thruths that otherwise we might not have seen, but ultimately all the lessons learned come from the bible. i'm not saying sit in your room alone and read your bible and then you're done. that is merely the first and most impoprtant step. without that you have nothing.

[ralphsink]

I didn't say the bible didn't contain everything we need: I said it is not the only useful source of information.

Does it contain everything we need? Sort of. Depends what you mean by "need." As it's grace, and not knowledge that saves us; in a way we don't even need the bible.

I think the idea that the church is just a collection of believers severely contradicts the Bible. I'm not sure where that idea even comes from.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say "ultimately all lessons for Christians come from this book."

[triggertantrums]

it's not my intent to say that the screwtape letters is invalid in any regards, i'm sure c.s. lewis knows what he's talking about. i'm just saying don't just take his word for it, or any other authors for that matter. God can speak directly to you and show you his truth if you want Him to. if He couldn't how did any of these people write the books they write?

[ralphsink]

"God can speak directly to you and show you his truth if you want Him to."

Sure that can happen. How often does it? If God spoke directly to every Christian and told them the truth, there would not be so much difference of opinion on matters of theology unless: most Christians are liars and don't listen to God. I have trouble believing that.

[triggertantrums]

if the bible is God's word, and you read it, isn't that hearing God's word? therefore you will find truth.
isn't it odd about the differences in opinions on theology? because of misinterpretations, and differing translations, we come up with all these varying ideas and rituals. but if we all believe the one truth of Jesus Christ as the son of God, and the only way of salvation from sin, we should all end up in the same place? makes me wonder if God might want us to disagree? think about the tower of babel. God created segregation. something our society fights, i find that interesting. i'm curious as to your thoughts.

[ralphsink]

So, what, you think God tells one person one thing about a point of theology and tells someone else something contradictory?

I think that if Jesus wanted us to disagree, he wouldn't have prayed that we be unified, and the Bible wouldn't say we should be - that we should be of one mind.

[jasonx10]

I have my own theory about segregation. I think if we didnt have it, it would make it more difficult for the world as a whole to stay out of sin. People of one language and culture tend to move generally in one direction as a group. It sort of helps when you have huge culture gaps to challenge each other if one ever rises up to become an evil super-power socialist bully or whatever.

I think that's why God was all like (in the days of Noah) "Dang...i gotsta drown all the immoral people of earth", and (during Soddom and Gommorah) "dang...I gosta hurl fire down on this here city filled with sin", and "dang...I gotsta send lotsa plagues on egypt because their culture is oppressing my chosen Jewish culture"

[ralphsink]

Having some different points of view rather than an intellectual hegemony might be good on non-critical issues (Thomism vs. Molinism). Having different views on policy issues is okay (Latin liturgy vs. the vernacular). But the Bible says the Church should be unified. So you can't argue that segregation and seperation (and the heresy that by necessity comes with it) are good things.

[jasonx10]

I was talking specifically about cultures/languages (tower of babel). I believe churches are a different matter and would tend to agree with you now and would probably still agree with you after giving it more thought.