good stuff

[jasonx10]

I'm probably the last person on the face of the planet to read it (or rather, audio-book it, as I needed something to listen to while driving), but I really like screwtape letters. It made me feel like im being incredibly lazy about ....pretty much everything faith related. I wish modern Christian writers would do more books like this. Christian

Comments

[ralphsink]

I'm held in a way when I go to Confession. :P

[ralphsink]

Hahahahah I meant "held accountable" but that's funny

[jasonx10]

hah. Sounds like a very charismatic confession.

I was talking more about teaching/preaching. I just think seeker-sensative churches are getting really slack in this area.

On a side note though, I happen to think organized confession is a good thing. I can't say I've gone to Catholic confession before, so I dont know how it goes, but I suppose as long as you A. Confess your sins, and B. Get some suggestions/encouragement/whatever you need to help suppress and eventually eliminate them, it can be very useful in helping you to push away from that struggle. So long as it's not a mechanical action carried out by the confessor and the priest, I see great use in it. My only concern would be creating a false sense of 'feeling cleansed' by means of carrying out so many hail marys or whatever in order to somehow second-pay for your misdeeds. To be honest, I guess I dont fully understand why some Catholics do hail marys (if you want, an explanation would be appreciated). From what I do know, I havent found any kind of biblical mandate

[ralphsink]

dern that /! < i > jason is stupid < /i >

[ralphsink]

Are you asking about the specific prayer (Hail Mary) or are you asking about the practice of doing a penance (which may or may not involve that prayer)?

[jasonx10]

Penance. Although, I'm not clear on exactly how the prayer goes and it's intended purpose, so you may as well explain em' both i guess.

danka

Ave Maria

[ralphsink]

Hail Mary, full of grace,
the Lord is with thee;
blessed art thou amongst women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners, now and at
the hour of our death.
Amen.

The first two lines come from the words of Gabriel in Luke 1:28. The second two from Elizabeth's greeting in Luke 1:42. The rest is based on biblical principles.

I think the main purpose of the prayer is to ask a fellow Christian to pray for us. Catholics don't see death as an impediment to praying for each other (I think we've discussed why before). I suppose it is also a good reminder of someone who can be a valuable example for us; and as an act of devotion.

Questions?

Re: Ave Maria

[jasonx10]

Ok.

Yep. A couple more - What is the purpose of penance in the Catholic church and in what ways is penance carried out by confessors?

Re: Ave Maria

[jasonx10]

Whoops. nevermind! I just noticed the link you posted

[ralphsink]

I've decided this can probably explain it better than I can. We'll see. :)

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c2a4.htm#1459

You'll want to read 1459 and the next two paragraphs. The whole page gives an overview of the sacrament.

[jasonx10]

Thanks. Very informative.

One more question:

I've heard 'hail marys' are one form of penance. Is that true, or did i just hear McSmack?

[ralphsink]

Yeah, any prayer can be assigned as penance - that is a common one. (I think Jack Chick types particularly like to focus on it as a symbol of evil Catholicism because it has the shock value of prayer to/for the dead, "Mary-worship," and "vain repetition." And becuase it's well known - at least from Football :) - while their ilk don't know more than the basics about Catholicism

[jasonx10]

I think I understand the reasoning behind it (the hail mary prayer), and I can't see it as 'Mary worship'. I think ultimately where I take issue with it though, is, I can't find anything biblical that tells me to pray to my ancestors or to other humans in heaven so that they may intercede on my behalf in some way

[ralphsink]

Well, what if I turn it around? The Bible tells us we should pray for each other. Where in the Bible does it say that we should stop asking people to pray for us just becuase they are in heaven?* We are all in Christ in some sense, why would life or death make a difference? If anything, it makes MORE sense to have someone in heaven praying for you than someone on Earth - they have more time for it and maybe can do it better.

Praying to Mary or the other saints is no substitute for praying to God, but it is a good thing.

(The belief that God allowed Mary to be concieved without the stain of original sin is called the Immaculate Conception)

*Not that something HAS to be in the Bible for Christians to believe it. That idea itself isn't found in the Bible, so it contradicts itself. :)