If you've read just about anything I've written since the age of 17 I think it should be fairly apparent to you that I have a problem with Joseph W Campbell and the Hero's Journey
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I'm having a little trouble finding out why you have a problem with the hero's journey to begin with. As I recall, Campbell wasn't saying that the hero's journey was a requirement for good stories, just that it was common in the longest lasting stories.
But motivation by act of self-preservation or for selfish reasons doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't fit into the basic structure of the hero's journey. The hero experiences a call to action in the beginning, but that call need not be altruistic. In fact, I'd argue that The Godfather actually does fit the basic structure of the hero's journey even if it's about a villain.
The hero's journey is more of a structural thing and the term hero is used principally because most of the works Campbell focused on were heroic myths. That same structure is still a part of quite a few stories that don't feature heroes.
Ok, I misspoke. I'm not disagreeing that it's a common structure for story or character development in myth, but I'm tired of hearing it touted as being a requisite one. I'm just tired of being told about the hero's journey this, the hero's journey that--particularly by comics people.
THE GODFATHER does indeed fit the "hero's journey"--mostly. That's why I put it on the list, even though Michael Corleone can hardly be called a hero. But of course he doesn't complete his journey--there's no enlightenment for him at the end. There's no freedom. He's trapped in the life he didn't want. That's why I liked it, and that's why you don't see SPIDER-MAN on the list.
Most people would rather forget that movie, but I think it confirms my point. Michael wants to go straight and fucks everything up. He grows old and dies alone, a failure. Not a hero's journey.
I noticed that I have one really common thing about all my work, aside from characters named Jenny, is that the heroes are all sort of similar in some base way: They're almost always people have were once more than they are at the start of the story and have fallen, and get into the plot of the story only because they can't help themselves, often out of a self interest that grows into some kind of heroism.
The Last Hero and Overthrow are overtly about this, but I can see it in almost everything else. It's no doubt some kind of reflection of my personality.
Re: BullshitjasonfranksJanuary 27 2009, 05:23:21 UTC
I guess I haven't made it clear what I'm actually complaining about. That essay I wrote is a bit on the antagonistic side and I expected to provoke a bit of reaction, but I guess what I was trying to say got lost in there somewhere
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Re: BullshitdinopollardJanuary 27 2009, 08:50:41 UTC
I agree with a lot of this except for the part that the works Jason listed all have heroes. A lot of them you can make a case for, I agree. But I don't think you can find a hero in American Psycho. Patrick Bateman was a total psychopath, an emotionless, uncaring, selfish void instead of an actual person, always more concerned with the superficial than anything else.
There's absolutely nothing heroic about Bateman. But that's okay, because it's still an amazing book and a great movie that perfectly satirizes the yuppie culture.
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But motivation by act of self-preservation or for selfish reasons doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't fit into the basic structure of the hero's journey. The hero experiences a call to action in the beginning, but that call need not be altruistic. In fact, I'd argue that The Godfather actually does fit the basic structure of the hero's journey even if it's about a villain.
The hero's journey is more of a structural thing and the term hero is used principally because most of the works Campbell focused on were heroic myths. That same structure is still a part of quite a few stories that don't feature heroes.
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Ok, I misspoke. I'm not disagreeing that it's a common structure for story or character development in myth, but I'm tired of hearing it touted as being a requisite one. I'm just tired of being told about the hero's journey this, the hero's journey that--particularly by comics people.
THE GODFATHER does indeed fit the "hero's journey"--mostly. That's why I put it on the list, even though Michael Corleone can hardly be called a hero. But of course he doesn't complete his journey--there's no enlightenment for him at the end. There's no freedom. He's trapped in the life he didn't want. That's why I liked it, and that's why you don't see SPIDER-MAN on the list.
-- JF
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Most people would rather forget that movie, but I think it confirms my point. Michael wants to go straight and fucks everything up. He grows old and dies alone, a failure. Not a hero's journey.
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The Last Hero and Overthrow are overtly about this, but I can see it in almost everything else. It's no doubt some kind of reflection of my personality.
Or I like flawed heroes.
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There's absolutely nothing heroic about Bateman. But that's okay, because it's still an amazing book and a great movie that perfectly satirizes the yuppie culture.
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