Oh, thank you, I knew they'd said how long it was before the signing and that I thought it was really short, but I couldn't remember the exact timeframe. But yes, lots of alarm bells because they are being completely railroaded, and it is all stick and no carrot.
And Tony has put himself with the railroaders. He is tacitly going "you are on your own, I'm already gone". I'm not sure if it was a deliberate tactic so much as an indication of... argh, can't quite find the words. Tony's lack of concern for the team as an entity? I feel like he is acting purely as a free agent, not as a member of the group at all. I don't remember them making it clear how far in advance Tony knew about the Accords, but that is not a good way to deal with it if he was just someone who is in a team of supposed peers, let alone people who are meant to be his friends. He doesn't even warn Rhodey what's coming!
he aligned himself with the guy who called Bruce and Thor nukes, which, WTF, Tony
Mm-hmm. It makes me think this is probably a large Doylist reason why Bruce went AWOL at the end of AoU - could he have done that with his best science bud Bruce in the room? Would Bruce have been a brake, able to put the other side of the issue to him in a way that Steve couldn't? Because Steve isn't exactly unbiased either and while I think they finally sold me that Tony and Steve at least want to be friends and can get on when things are going smoothly, their frames of reference and attitudes are so different that they can't get into controversial areas without one of them overrreacting or getting defensive - but Bruce and Tony are a lot more on the same wavelength.
There was a very interesting reaction post I saw somewhere that suggested some of the difference is that Tony is actually the optimistic one (even naive) - he can trust that the governments, or big business, or himself can step in with a fix for something, can make things better, he actually has more general faith in people collectively being good. And Steve is the grim and angry one who has been through grinding poverty and war and seeing people attempt genocide and doesn't have that faith in humanity as a whole, but believes everyone individually has to try to do the right thing anyway, no matter how hard it is and how much everything sucks. I'm not totally sure I agree with it, but is kind of intriguing to think of Steve as the person who isn't surprised when people take awful actions but wants them to try to be better and of Tony expecting people to have good intentions and being surprised when they don't (like with the Raft and how Team Steve are treated there).
Yeah, and it makes so very little sense. Because if he wants those Accords, shouldn't he want the others to sign them? And yet he makes no effort to convince them - he separates himself from them even before the Accords are presented to them. He makes gestures towards reaching out, but the time for trying would have been before things got to that point, and he just doesn't. It's the complete opposite of Natasha's "the most important part is staying together" ...
There's nothing explicitly stating whether or not Tony knew in advance (much less how much in advance), but I don't see how else you could read his behaviour during the presentation. He's made up his mind. And he hasn't bothered to tell anyone else, leaving that to Ross. makes me think this is probably a large Doylist reason why Bruce went AWOL at the end of AoU
Yes! I don't think it could have worked at all with Bruce. In AoU Bruce went along with Tony, but he wouldn't have gone along here, and I think Tony would have been a lot more willing and able to listen to Bruce. Tony and Steve just keep talking past each other.
kind of intriguing to think of Steve as the person who isn't surprised when people take awful actions but wants them to try to be better and of Tony expecting people to have good intentions and being surprised when they don't (like with the Raft and how Team Steve are treated there)
I haven't seen the post you mention, but I actually agree wtih all of that! People look at Steve and treat him like he's some kind of cinnamon roll optimist, but he's really really not. Well, he's optimistic insofar as he believes that a single person standing up and saying no, I'm not going along with this can and will make a difference. But on the larger scale, not at all.
And Tony has put himself with the railroaders. He is tacitly going "you are on your own, I'm already gone". I'm not sure if it was a deliberate tactic so much as an indication of... argh, can't quite find the words. Tony's lack of concern for the team as an entity? I feel like he is acting purely as a free agent, not as a member of the group at all. I don't remember them making it clear how far in advance Tony knew about the Accords, but that is not a good way to deal with it if he was just someone who is in a team of supposed peers, let alone people who are meant to be his friends. He doesn't even warn Rhodey what's coming!
he aligned himself with the guy who called Bruce and Thor nukes, which, WTF, Tony
Mm-hmm. It makes me think this is probably a large Doylist reason why Bruce went AWOL at the end of AoU - could he have done that with his best science bud Bruce in the room? Would Bruce have been a brake, able to put the other side of the issue to him in a way that Steve couldn't? Because Steve isn't exactly unbiased either and while I think they finally sold me that Tony and Steve at least want to be friends and can get on when things are going smoothly, their frames of reference and attitudes are so different that they can't get into controversial areas without one of them overrreacting or getting defensive - but Bruce and Tony are a lot more on the same wavelength.
There was a very interesting reaction post I saw somewhere that suggested some of the difference is that Tony is actually the optimistic one (even naive) - he can trust that the governments, or big business, or himself can step in with a fix for something, can make things better, he actually has more general faith in people collectively being good. And Steve is the grim and angry one who has been through grinding poverty and war and seeing people attempt genocide and doesn't have that faith in humanity as a whole, but believes everyone individually has to try to do the right thing anyway, no matter how hard it is and how much everything sucks. I'm not totally sure I agree with it, but is kind of intriguing to think of Steve as the person who isn't surprised when people take awful actions but wants them to try to be better and of Tony expecting people to have good intentions and being surprised when they don't (like with the Raft and how Team Steve are treated there).
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Yeah, and it makes so very little sense. Because if he wants those Accords, shouldn't he want the others to sign them? And yet he makes no effort to convince them - he separates himself from them even before the Accords are presented to them. He makes gestures towards reaching out, but the time for trying would have been before things got to that point, and he just doesn't. It's the complete opposite of Natasha's "the most important part is staying together" ...
There's nothing explicitly stating whether or not Tony knew in advance (much less how much in advance), but I don't see how else you could read his behaviour during the presentation. He's made up his mind. And he hasn't bothered to tell anyone else, leaving that to Ross.
makes me think this is probably a large Doylist reason why Bruce went AWOL at the end of AoU
Yes! I don't think it could have worked at all with Bruce. In AoU Bruce went along with Tony, but he wouldn't have gone along here, and I think Tony would have been a lot more willing and able to listen to Bruce. Tony and Steve just keep talking past each other.
kind of intriguing to think of Steve as the person who isn't surprised when people take awful actions but wants them to try to be better and of Tony expecting people to have good intentions and being surprised when they don't (like with the Raft and how Team Steve are treated there)
I haven't seen the post you mention, but I actually agree wtih all of that! People look at Steve and treat him like he's some kind of cinnamon roll optimist, but he's really really not. Well, he's optimistic insofar as he believes that a single person standing up and saying no, I'm not going along with this can and will make a difference. But on the larger scale, not at all.
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