So, dear readers; much has conspired since my last monologue, first and foremost being the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ and the subsequent reprise of the "alleluia" into our liturgical vernacular
( Read more... )
don't knock other religions
anonymous
May 9 2004, 18:53:28 UTC
Hey John,
I'm commenting in regards to your suggestion that Christians who accept followers Buddhism, Tao Te Ching, Hinduism, etc because these religious teachings are all relatively the same to Christianity are, at least what i gathered from your comment, wrong. Have you actually, however, studied these different religions? If you have, you would see that these religions are essentially the same. They are universal! It is fascinating that groups of people in remote parts of the world can achieve the same higher experience and, therefore, form a similar doctrines.
Yes, Jesus died for my sins. I truly believe that. But who am I to judge someone who doesn't believe? I believe Jesus' two most important teachings were 1. love your god above all and 2. love your neighbor as yourself. If I were to live my life fully to those two commandments, Jesus, Alah, God, whatever higher being will show through because those are universal commandments. The good news of Jesus' ressurection is a gift to everyone, even if they know it or not. I know it because I was brought up on that good news. Others may not, but i do not doubt that they are in the dark in some way. To me, Jesus ressurection is a remainder that there is always an Eastertide at the other side of a dark corner. His sacrifice is his love for us and that is an extreme comfort for me.
Response Pt. 1 - Please read both as I don't have enough room to type all.its_salmonMay 10 2004, 07:02:44 UTC
I cannot agree that they are essentially the same and I don't feel that they would agree with that either. Moreso, I cannot agree that they are "the same" as Christianity for this very reason. As Christians, we lift up the name of Jesus as the unique son of God who was resurrected from the dead and is living today. All the other religions say "I don't think so, you're mistaken". Our faith is CENTERED (wow, I wish I had some italics to further emphasize that word) in the cross and the empty tomb, yet even the Abrahamic faiths to which we are so closely linked demean this by saying "Jesus wasn't it, keep looking."
Building on this difference, I REALLY can't agree that the other religions are more or less the same as Christianity because with Christ's passion, death and resurrection, humanity's system of getting to God through "doing this" or "praying this many times a day and in this particular way" or "not doing that" (none of which worked, by the way, shows the entire Old Testament) was turned upside down. Because of Jesus, salvation is now not achieved by what we do but rather by what Christ, son of God and indeed God Himself, has done. Jesus made it clear that this is who he was and why he was here and that's why the Jewish leaders wanted him killed (which, to whoever might be reading this, is not an anti-semitic statement; just a fact; I'm not suggesting that we hold the Jews in contempt for "killing Jesus").
You could argue that other religions are universally similar in that they all reject this claim by Jesus and the Christians to follow. But does that make them the same as Christianity? Clearly not.
I feel that there's another issue to be brought up as well. These religions don't even have similar claims about God and salvation (the eternal communion with God) to each other. Some religions glory in the notion of a cyclical road of life, death and rebirth while others regard this reincarnation as a sort of purgatory until one reaches a state of soul, free of suffering (without much mention of any God, much less the God who created the world and then united Himself to us through incarnation). In fact, if you told most other religions what Heaven was like, based on the Bible, they would reject it (and often have rejected it). Why would they want to spend eternity with this triune God that they don't even believe in? "Thanks, I'll pass and hope for reincarnation or Nirvana or whatever". And what are we to say then? "Okay, well I'm gonna go to MY heaven. Have fun in YOURS"??
Surely you can see that there are severe contradictions here that cannot be ignored. And as lovely as it may sound to our postmodern ears, truth is not whatever YOU decide to allow to be truth for YOU. And at the end of the day (and believe me, there will be an end of the day) Jesus is either who he said he was or he isn't. No these religions are not the same to each other or to Christianity.
Now, please do not turn the computer off or start replying to this yet. I do need to make a comment about salvation. I am in no way saying with any amount of certainty that those who oppose the Gospel of Jesus are going to Hell. I'm pretty sure that such a decision is God's alone to make. And he's made it pretty clear to me that I'm not in the judgement business. Should I decide to open up shop in the judgement business, I know from scripture that my first few minutes with God might be a little uncomfortable. Salvation ain't mine to hand out but it's Jesus' alone. I'm gonna leave the population census of Hell in the "I don't know" box for now.
Pt. 2 - Read Part 1 Firstits_salmonMay 10 2004, 07:04:30 UTC
But here's what I do know. Jesus said "those who reject me, reject the one who sent me". And there's a whole lot of rejection of God going on in the world through the claims ABOUT JESUS made by Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans, you name it. Such claims negate the power of the cross and the incarnation of almighty God in Jesus Christ becomes a big ole "What's the point?" statement. I know that this breaks the heart of our God who is, by nature a jealous God (to which I say that He should be a jealous God, begging us to turn our eyes from all that is not as important as Him, which is EVERYTHING). I don't want to break God's heart. I don't want to (as the Hebrews author writes) "trample the body of the Son of God underfoot". Indeed, in the same way, claims that other religious systems are equal to Jesus' sacrifice or that it's okay to reject Jesus for the Buddha do just that.
Now that leaves another thing for me to say. I do believe that there is some respectful truth in many many other religious systems. You can look at the way that other religions respond to God's call to help the poor and oppressed and know that this is not a misunderstanding of divine revelation. Any and all truth in this world comes from God and there are some truths to be learned from God through general revelations that have been interpreted by others who don't believe in Christ. By the same token, I can look at the intricacies of this earth and universe that the God of the Trinity has created and glean some God-truths. But the fact of the matter is, until we know the specific revelation of God to us through Jesus ("the image of the invisible God", Paul writes), we do not truly know the power of God's saving grace and (this is the really important part) we do not fully ENJOY and GLORIFY God as we were created to. It is not until we realize the truth of Christ's passion that we come to live in the ultimate love that God laid out for us and so basking in that love that we glorify God above all else.
My call is this to all of us: let us dig deep into scripture and first internalize and really take to heart what it means for Jesus to be who he said he was and to have accomplished what we believe that he accomplished. Believe me, the more we dig in, the more we find it to be the real truth. If you go looking for God in the Bible, you'll see Him face-to-face in Jesus Christ. You'll realize how much we need Jesus as a sinful, fallen humanity and the immensity of God's love will overwhelm you and it'll break your heart that others don't know that love.
Please internalize these things and respond. I don't claim to know all the answers, but I believe what is written here to be firmly supported by Holy Scripture and the truth of God revealed in the world. I think it's great that we discuss such things. I know God would prefer it to a discourse on who should have won on "American Idol". Let's explore this together. All are invited. I'll leave you with the words of Martin Luther.
"Christ is the offspring promised to Abraham; on him God has grounded all his promises. Therefore Christ alone is the means, the life and the mirror through which we see God and know his will. Through Christ, God declares his favour and mercy to us. In Christ we see that God is not an angry master and judge but a gracious and kind father, who blesses us, that is, who delivers us from the law, sin, death, and every evil, and gives us righteousness and eternal life through Christ."
Other religions indeed
anonymous
May 10 2004, 22:31:37 UTC
There is One God. He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He has revealed himself to us over many thousands of years, and yet, we seem to forget what we know of God.
Theology essentially means knowledge of God. (theo-God, logia-knowledge-message). How do we know what this is? By what he has revealed to us.
God revealed himself to many generations so to reconcile his love to us. The human soul longs to be with God, and I certainly believe some of the prophets of those "other religions" as you pose them, quite possibly were trying to get in tune with God, without knowledge of God. However, for 2,000+ years now, we've had overwhelming knowledge of the salvific work of God in the Incarnation, teaching, Death, and Resurrection of Our Lord Jesus Christ. For a few thousand years before that, we had the novel of God's attempt to straighten mankind out, and in Jesus, we have the remedy.
So then what? We actually pay attention to what he did, said, and DIED for. To be a Christian is to proclaim the Gospel (good news) of Jesus christ. To say, "I've done that already" or "I believe in the Gospel of Christ" and I think the other religions have the same thing to offer without proclaiming the Resurrected Christ is absurd. YOU have more work to do as a Christian. If they do not know this indescribable work of mercy that God has given us through Jesus, it is our obligation to bring it to them.
Regarding Hell, or condemnation: 1John 2:22 "This is the anti-christ, he who denies the Father and the Son." 1 John is full of messages concerning love, and welcoming one another in the love of God. But it comes with a provision: Proclaiming the Resurrected Jesus as the Son of God and expiation of sins. 1 John 5:12- "He who has the son has life; he who has not the Son of God, has not life." 1 John 5:9 "If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God, that he has borne witness to his Son." 1 Peter 3:20-22 "When God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the Ark, in a few, that is, eight people were saved through water. Baptism which corresponds to this now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, THROUGH THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him."
The Resurrection is the filter or lens through which all salvation must be viewed. Without it, we will not clearly see God.
Don't take my word for this, but rather open up the scriptures and discover them for yourself. In reading your argument, I don't think you've quite mastered Christianity yet, and should as a baptized christian, stick to that one first. Then when you finish the work of expounding the New Testament, begin a comparative study of "other religions" and see what measures up.
There is one Resurrected Lord, one prophet above all. Buddhism, Confucianism, islam, and the others certainly have inspired writings, and messages of love. Most of them attribute blessings to their God for their works. The gospel teaches us that we shall know the prophets by their fruits. I challenge you to show greater fruits than these. In this century as humans living in the knowledge of a Resurrected Lord, we need to embrace his teaching, and spread it to the world. For it is by him and his works that we shall best understand God.
Don't knock other religions, rather, shake them to the core! And do it in the name of the one Resurrected Lord, and author of Salvation, Jesus Christ the risen Son of God.
God loves all his sheep, especially the lost ones. Seek a shepherd, and be guided into the truth of the Gospel.
-Jon Jenkins Student at Nashotah House Episcopal Seminary Email me anytime. I'll hapily hear your insights. -jonnycj@hotmail.com
Re: Other religions indeed
anonymous
May 11 2004, 17:21:16 UTC
More people would probably lend credence to your arguments if you simply learned to spell "happily" properly. Before prematurely picking others' fruit, learn to "show greater fruits" of your own.
Re: Other religions indeedits_salmonMay 11 2004, 22:33:42 UTC
Whoa boy howdy; I don't know when this turned into a spelling bee, but can we please keep to what's important? I love that there is conversation happening in this arena and on this journal. But I'm not so down with petty spelling/grammatical corrections (which, by the way, can be made for each post and response made so far). I'm much more interested in why anyone is disgusted. Disgusted is a pretty strong word and I feel that there should be some exploration into such emotion. There have now been two anonymous posts here, which doesn't exactly bring about an atmosphere of honesty and safety to this discussion. And there seems to be some varied points of view in those who are reading/responding. I would sincerely hope to hear more details than "I'm mildly amused and disgusted". Please feel free to share your thoughts. This is, I assure you, a safe place to do so provided you help to make it so. All are invited to speak their mind here. I simply ask that we all do so honestly and without slander.
St. Paul writes this to the Corinthians: "For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through flames."
These sort of discussions are important. I trust that we each have a foundation of the forgiveness of our sins through Jesus Christ. But we need to be sure that we are building properly on that foundation, meaning that we need to base our beliefs and understandings about God firmly on scripture. I want that which is built on my foundations to survive on the last day more than one whose doctrines escape narrowly as if jumping through a fire. We must persevere in our study of God and our learning about God together so that the truth prevails always in our lives. That's all I ask. Please continue the discussion because these things are really really important. May God bless us all.
I'm commenting in regards to your suggestion that Christians who accept followers Buddhism, Tao Te Ching, Hinduism, etc because these religious teachings are all relatively the same to Christianity are, at least what i gathered from your comment, wrong. Have you actually, however, studied these different religions? If you have, you would see that these religions are essentially the same. They are universal! It is fascinating that groups of people in remote parts of the world can achieve the same higher experience and, therefore, form a similar doctrines.
Yes, Jesus died for my sins. I truly believe that. But who am I to judge someone who doesn't believe? I believe Jesus' two most important teachings were 1. love your god above all and 2. love your neighbor as yourself. If I were to live my life fully to those two commandments, Jesus, Alah, God, whatever higher being will show through because those are universal commandments. The good news of Jesus' ressurection is a gift to everyone, even if they know it or not. I know it because I was brought up on that good news. Others may not, but i do not doubt that they are in the dark in some way. To me, Jesus ressurection is a remainder that there is always an Eastertide at the other side of a dark corner. His sacrifice is his love for us and that is an extreme comfort for me.
Reply
Building on this difference, I REALLY can't agree that the other religions are more or less the same as Christianity because with Christ's passion, death and resurrection, humanity's system of getting to God through "doing this" or "praying this many times a day and in this particular way" or "not doing that" (none of which worked, by the way, shows the entire Old Testament) was turned upside down. Because of Jesus, salvation is now not achieved by what we do but rather by what Christ, son of God and indeed God Himself, has done. Jesus made it clear that this is who he was and why he was here and that's why the Jewish leaders wanted him killed (which, to whoever might be reading this, is not an anti-semitic statement; just a fact; I'm not suggesting that we hold the Jews in contempt for "killing Jesus").
You could argue that other religions are universally similar in that they all reject this claim by Jesus and the Christians to follow. But does that make them the same as Christianity? Clearly not.
I feel that there's another issue to be brought up as well. These religions don't even have similar claims about God and salvation (the eternal communion with God) to each other. Some religions glory in the notion of a cyclical road of life, death and rebirth while others regard this reincarnation as a sort of purgatory until one reaches a state of soul, free of suffering (without much mention of any God, much less the God who created the world and then united Himself to us through incarnation). In fact, if you told most other religions what Heaven was like, based on the Bible, they would reject it (and often have rejected it). Why would they want to spend eternity with this triune God that they don't even believe in? "Thanks, I'll pass and hope for reincarnation or Nirvana or whatever". And what are we to say then? "Okay, well I'm gonna go to MY heaven. Have fun in YOURS"??
Surely you can see that there are severe contradictions here that cannot be ignored. And as lovely as it may sound to our postmodern ears, truth is not whatever YOU decide to allow to be truth for YOU. And at the end of the day (and believe me, there will be an end of the day) Jesus is either who he said he was or he isn't. No these religions are not the same to each other or to Christianity.
Now, please do not turn the computer off or start replying to this yet. I do need to make a comment about salvation. I am in no way saying with any amount of certainty that those who oppose the Gospel of Jesus are going to Hell. I'm pretty sure that such a decision is God's alone to make. And he's made it pretty clear to me that I'm not in the judgement business. Should I decide to open up shop in the judgement business, I know from scripture that my first few minutes with God might be a little uncomfortable. Salvation ain't mine to hand out but it's Jesus' alone. I'm gonna leave the population census of Hell in the "I don't know" box for now.
Reply
Now that leaves another thing for me to say. I do believe that there is some respectful truth in many many other religious systems. You can look at the way that other religions respond to God's call to help the poor and oppressed and know that this is not a misunderstanding of divine revelation. Any and all truth in this world comes from God and there are some truths to be learned from God through general revelations that have been interpreted by others who don't believe in Christ. By the same token, I can look at the intricacies of this earth and universe that the God of the Trinity has created and glean some God-truths. But the fact of the matter is, until we know the specific revelation of God to us through Jesus ("the image of the invisible God", Paul writes), we do not truly know the power of God's saving grace and (this is the really important part) we do not fully ENJOY and GLORIFY God as we were created to. It is not until we realize the truth of Christ's passion that we come to live in the ultimate love that God laid out for us and so basking in that love that we glorify God above all else.
My call is this to all of us: let us dig deep into scripture and first internalize and really take to heart what it means for Jesus to be who he said he was and to have accomplished what we believe that he accomplished. Believe me, the more we dig in, the more we find it to be the real truth. If you go looking for God in the Bible, you'll see Him face-to-face in Jesus Christ. You'll realize how much we need Jesus as a sinful, fallen humanity and the immensity of God's love will overwhelm you and it'll break your heart that others don't know that love.
Please internalize these things and respond. I don't claim to know all the answers, but I believe what is written here to be firmly supported by Holy Scripture and the truth of God revealed in the world. I think it's great that we discuss such things. I know God would prefer it to a discourse on who should have won on "American Idol". Let's explore this together. All are invited. I'll leave you with the words of Martin Luther.
"Christ is the offspring promised to Abraham; on him God has grounded all his promises. Therefore Christ alone is the means, the life and the mirror through which we see God and know his will. Through Christ, God declares his favour and mercy to us. In Christ we see that God is not an angry master and judge but a gracious and kind father, who blesses us, that is, who delivers us from the law, sin, death, and every evil, and gives us righteousness and eternal life through Christ."
Reply
Theology essentially means knowledge of God. (theo-God, logia-knowledge-message). How do we know what this is? By what he has revealed to us.
God revealed himself to many generations so to reconcile his love to us. The human soul longs to be with God, and I certainly believe some of the prophets of those "other religions" as you pose them, quite possibly were trying to get in tune with God, without knowledge of God. However, for 2,000+ years now, we've had overwhelming knowledge of the salvific work of God in the Incarnation, teaching, Death, and Resurrection of Our Lord Jesus Christ. For a few thousand years before that, we had the novel of God's attempt to straighten mankind out, and in Jesus, we have the remedy.
So then what? We actually pay attention to what he did, said, and DIED for. To be a Christian is to proclaim the Gospel (good news) of Jesus christ. To say, "I've done that already" or "I believe in the Gospel of Christ" and I think the other religions have the same thing to offer without proclaiming the Resurrected Christ is absurd. YOU have more work to do as a Christian. If they do not know this indescribable work of mercy that God has given us through Jesus, it is our obligation to bring it to them.
Regarding Hell, or condemnation:
1John 2:22 "This is the anti-christ, he who denies the Father and the Son." 1 John is full of messages concerning love, and welcoming one another in the love of God. But it comes with a provision: Proclaiming the Resurrected Jesus as the Son of God and expiation of sins.
1 John 5:12- "He who has the son has life; he who has not the Son of God, has not life."
1 John 5:9 "If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony of God is greater, for this is the testimony of God, that he has borne witness to his Son."
1 Peter 3:20-22 "When God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the Ark, in a few, that is, eight people were saved through water. Baptism which corresponds to this now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, THROUGH THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST, who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him."
The Resurrection is the filter or lens through which all salvation must be viewed. Without it, we will not clearly see God.
Don't take my word for this, but rather open up the scriptures and discover them for yourself. In reading your argument, I don't think you've quite mastered Christianity yet, and should as a baptized christian, stick to that one first. Then when you finish the work of expounding the New Testament, begin a comparative study of "other religions" and see what measures up.
There is one Resurrected Lord, one prophet above all. Buddhism, Confucianism, islam, and the others certainly have inspired writings, and messages of love. Most of them attribute blessings to their God for their works. The gospel teaches us that we shall know the prophets by their fruits. I challenge you to show greater fruits than these. In this century as humans living in the knowledge of a Resurrected Lord, we need to embrace his teaching, and spread it to the world. For it is by him and his works that we shall best understand God.
Don't knock other religions, rather, shake them to the core! And do it in the name of the one Resurrected Lord, and author of Salvation, Jesus Christ the risen Son of God.
God loves all his sheep, especially the lost ones. Seek a shepherd, and be guided into the truth of the Gospel.
-Jon Jenkins
Student at Nashotah House Episcopal Seminary
Email me anytime. I'll hapily hear your insights.
-jonnycj@hotmail.com
Reply
--a mildly amused and disgusted third party
Reply
St. Paul writes this to the Corinthians:
"For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through flames."
These sort of discussions are important. I trust that we each have a foundation of the forgiveness of our sins through Jesus Christ. But we need to be sure that we are building properly on that foundation, meaning that we need to base our beliefs and understandings about God firmly on scripture. I want that which is built on my foundations to survive on the last day more than one whose doctrines escape narrowly as if jumping through a fire. We must persevere in our study of God and our learning about God together so that the truth prevails always in our lives. That's all I ask. Please continue the discussion because these things are really really important. May God bless us all.
Reply
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