Comments | irenicspace: The heart of the matter...

irenicspace

The heart of the matter...

Oct 06, 2004 13:57

In a recent post, ash93 suggested the creation of a position or committee within the OTO that would “hear, review, and make recommendations on grievances from members” of the MOE. ash93 states that the MOE members, when coming in conflict with those of the lovers or hermit triad often get the short end of the stick or the case gets whitewashed. ash93's solution ( Read more... )

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Re: I try - so do other GL officers, believe it or not irenicspace October 6 2004, 19:29:49 UTC

If this is the best that USGL can do? Then it is not good enough. I appreicate that some try, but the results matter when there is a lack of trust. The results, not the effort, matter when a person feels that have no one to turn to and resigns. The results matter when another person oversteps their position and no one calls them on it. The effort is appreciated, but the results matter.

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Re: I try - so do other GL officers, believe it or not irenicspace October 7 2004, 01:04:20 UTC

"Do you think that the mediation could be done by the Committee of Four?"

I do not see why not. I don't have any significant disagreements with how the process works; I have a problem with the lack of commitment to the principles and the consistent "disappearing" of GT results.

"But then again, it all comes back down to whether or not those persons have virtue. It has to start with integrity, virtue and honor."

Yes it does, and that comes from the top. If a general lacks virtue, his men will lack virtue all the way down to the lowest private. If the general is inconsistent, and will not stand behind his decisions and take responsibility for his actions, the men will lose respect for him. It all starts on the top. Respect, virtue, honor, integrity, trust all take a life time to earn, cultivate and develop, but only a moment to lose.

Re: I try - so do other GL officers, believe it or not irenicspace October 6 2004, 19:33:16 UTC

At the last Kabaa in Atlanta, contentlove was a big proponent of modeling behavior and I could not agree with it more. You want to see the lower degrees start being able to judge what honor, virtue and integrity look like, the leadership needs to start modeling it.

Re: I try - so do other GL officers, believe it or not isomeme October 6 2004, 19:43:31 UTC

The OTO leaders I know do this very consciously. I know I strive to do so.

Re: I try - so do other GL officers, believe it or not irenicspace October 6 2004, 20:02:43 UTC

Then you must know different OTO leaders than I because the ones I see do not.

Re: I try - so do other GL officers, believe it or not magdalena_lvx October 6 2004, 21:23:18 UTC

Wow - what a sweeping generalization. No GL officer or OTO leader that you know is striving towards "Honor, virtue, self-control, helpfulness, dependability". Certainly you can't mean that literally, else it would make it very difficult for you as a leader in the community as well as an initiate of the OTO.

Re: I try - so do other GL officers, believe it or not irenicspace October 7 2004, 00:40:48 UTC

The ones that matter the most are the ones who practice conditional principle application. This is poor modeling. In general I am pointing to the SGIGs and higher. The fact that they know these things happen and are complacent yet have the direct ability to question this and demand change is the reason for this "sweeping generalization," and note, it is as sweeping as the context in which isomeme started with.

For instance there were many SGIG's and higher at the Atlanta Kabaa espousing many wonderful and productive ways to lead and have an effective local body. Why do they not demand these same things from USGL? I often ask and get the "its getting better..." Compared to what? One what timeline?

At the snails pace USGL is going we might have a mission statement by 2012. Is that an OK timeline to you? It is not to me.

[Where did I get 2012 USGL was founded in 1996 - it has taken 8 years to get to the point of considering one, so I doubled it hoping that it might finish it by then.]

amazing what people will post to the internet paradoxosalpha October 6 2004, 22:36:23 UTC

Try saying to my face sometime that I lack "honor, virtue and integrity" in my OTO work. I'll call you a liar right back to yours. You might also perform this experiment in your mind with some other "OTO leaders" whom you know personally.

*shaking my head in disbelief*

Definitely gives new meaning ... leroy484 October 6 2004, 23:14:47 UTC

to "as Brothers fight ye!"

Or maybe just the old meaning.

Re: amazing what people will post to the internet irenicspace October 7 2004, 00:50:13 UTC

Actually PA, I am not talking about your personal OTO work, I am talking about grand lodge work. Other then your lodge mastership, I have not seen much on the grand lodge level. Now I can make an inference that you are on the GT. If that is the case then I'll ask you, why does the GT not get disseminate investigation results? Is it not important that the membership knows when officers and members are disciplined? See the reply from mendaxvertias regarding transparency and the posting of information. It is good food for thought ( ... )

My USGL work paradoxosalpha October 7 2004, 16:01:47 UTC

Actually PA, I am not talking about your personal OTO work, I am talking about grand lodge work. Other then your lodge mastership, I have not seen much on the grand lodge level.

I was also talking about "grand lodge work." Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean much to me. I don't report to you, as you are neither my subordinate nor my superior.

But you should be able to recall that I was the original proponent of the Kaaba leadership training sessions, and that I have continued to contribute to them and to present at them (with a couple of recent exceptions while I was abroad). I have very explicitly identified myself with the cultivation of leadership methods and techniques within USGL.

I don't see any point in bragging here about the various other leadership functions I have fulfilled and continue to fulfill in USGL. Nor am I interested in debating the status or merit of the evolving procedures of the GT in your journal.

If you don't think that members of "the leadership" and "the higher degrees" invest their ( ... )

Re: amazing what people will post to the internet irenicspace October 7 2004, 00:59:10 UTC

The ones I know personally are the ones I am often disagree with and let them know and when I see hypocracy, I say that too. My principles and how I see things are not based on personal friendships.

And by the way, there is nothing that I post that I wouldn't be willing to say to someones face. Obviously you have someone in mind, if you do not believe me, ask that person/persons.

Re: amazing what people will post to the internet paradoxosalpha October 7 2004, 16:04:29 UTC

And by the way, there is nothing that I post that I wouldn't be willing to say to someones face. Obviously you have someone in mind, if you do not believe me, ask that person/persons.

Actually, I don't have anyone in particular in mind, I have everyone in mind. You are quick to make blanket condemnations of groups that include me and many other people who have earned my abiding respect. That's it. I won't be revisiting this thread to fuel your grandstanding. If you have anything further to say to me about this matter, you may address it to me privately.

Re: amazing what people will post to the internet tausirhasirim October 7 2004, 04:12:42 UTC

I got a call from irenicspace requesting I comment on your post. A disclaimer - this sounds pretty acrimonious, and while I have a general idea of what the former has been discussing in his lj, I haven't been following the discussion, which runs far afield of where I am currently focused ( ... )

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