I'M GOIN' IN FOR THE KILLLLLLLLLLLLLL I'M DOIN' IT FOR A THRILLLLLLLLLLLLL
Wow, so uh. Last entry I posted a link to this article on Bayonetta, and it got a lot of opinions from my flist! I wanted to reply to all the comments but then I realized I might end up just saying the same thing again and again, so I decided I'll make a new entry here with my thoughts re: ladies in media.
FIRSTLY THOUGH, I like to debate things, I like to talk about feminism and video games. I also like and respect the opinions of all the people on my flist, and I know they are all different people so they are bound to have different thoughts and maybe disagree, but if you cannot disagree in a civil manner then just. Get out.
SECONDLY, I haven't played Bayonetta, just heard that god damn song on loop while working at Gamestop. So I'mma talk about what I essentially consider acceptable and unacceptable in media in general, using this Bayonetta article as a sort of starting point, and why. And I'm going to post this and then remember fifty other things I wanted to say, and then the comments will point out those things and I will grind my teeth.
Let us be on our merry way.
Okay, so.
First off, I think a big issue here is, can a female video game character be sexy and not be demeaning to women? Yes, of course.
But, as the article itself says, context is everything. How is her sexuality portrayed? This is not only the context of within the game, but within the context of people who are playing the game. You do not have sexism in a vacuum; we can put a man and a woman in the exact same situation and clothing, and it is society that tells us that one is acceptable and the other is not. And things are not okay just because they are art or parody or comic books; art reflects reality, reality reflects media. Something like a tv show or video game is a medium for communicating to a staggering amount of people, and you have to take into consideration that while your characters may not encompass your own values, you take responsibility for the message your media sends.
So, the article refers to Bayonetta being sexy within the context of the game, but not within the context of society. Why does Bayonetta being sexy set off alarms in the context of society? Again, a character can be sexy and not be insulting to women. But is she being sexy as an object for men to oogle or what? In fact, for ladies to oogle as well. And why is that potentially unacceptable?
Okay, so, society's context. What is society's context?
What does society say that men should be, and what does society say that women should be?
Now, what do men want to be, and what do women want to be?
What do men want women to be, and what do women want men to be?
Strong? Compassionate? Sexy? Demure? Confident? Understanding? Nurturing? Etc etc.
And which of those questions have the same answers?
Obviously, they're going to be different for each person, and I am not a man nor am I every woman, but typically in my experience (and I am totally open to being informed of opposing examples or trends or what have you) the ones that line up are:
What society says men should be is usually the same as what men want to be.
What society says women should be is usually the same as what men want women to be.
My point:
What video games say men and women should be is usually the same as what men want.
So. Does Bayonetta pander to what men want? What does it offer for me besides lots of sexuality? Because that's likely to just make me uncomfortable more than anything. Another commenter on my last entry said that in Bayonetta there was mucho fanservice, and in fact, "Bayocrotch" in large quantities. And you know, I don't need to see lots of naked breasts and vagina to celebrate having them.
To further this, men and women have different reactions to seeing their own genders portrayed in the same manner, which is part of, again, society's context and what has been acceptable for generations VS what is only becoming acceptable now. Most straight guys would probably not enjoy a game where the lead male character's penis was dangling about after a difficult boss battle, but I doubt they would raise a fuss about it, or take issue with the character's proportions being exaggerated (or if they did take issue, I would predict a reaction of scorn or disdain). But how many games like that are there? Guys haven't had to put up with being objectified to such an extent and popularity; of course they won't be bothered by it much. Men and women react differently, they are different. They are also equal in spite of if not because of those differences, just throwing that out there.
Quoting the article, "For years, video games have struggled to define what constitutes a positive portrayal of women. We've learned what isn't, over our checkered history of anime panty shots, gratuitous cleavage and breast physics."
Does Bayonetta lack these things? If Bayonetta contains these things, what makes them okay in Bayonetta and not okay elsewhere?
The article says that Bayonetta celebrates femininity, with symbols that, to me, speak of traditional feminine associations: lipstick, butterflies, etc. And of course Bayonetta's own sexuality. And, as a feminist, I believe that a girl who likes traditional things and to wear short pink skirts and frills and who wants to be a mother is making just as valid a choice as a girl who wants to wear pants and a suit and be an astro-physicist, or a girl who wears jeans and sneakers and wants to be a champion kick-boxer, etc etc. But in the context of society today, those choices are viewed very very differently. I am sure that reading, you had different opinions of those three different girls; why is that, and what were those opinions?
At this point, I'd like to say again that I haven't played Bayonetta and am not passing judgment on it, but am responding to ideas that the article and commenters to my last entry made me think about.
I really like the idea, however, that a character can be very feminine and sexy and also empowering. I really want to believe in it happening. I love characters who are not typically feminine, like Toph as an example. But I also love characters like Ty Lee and Zelda and Midna and Yoko, and to tell you the truth it makes me uncomfortable when Yoko's breasts are such a focus; I understand that something like her star-breasts were parody, but that doesn't remove the greater context of her filling in a long-standing traditional role of eye-candy. That doesn't mean that Gainax did not choose to pose her in all manner of ridiculous but sexual positions for the purpose of giving their male audience something to enjoy sexually.
"... it's unfair to strip video game women of their sexuality completely, or to assert that if a character is sexual that she must be getting exploited. ... we can accept that being mousy, tomboyish or turtle-necked is not the only way a woman can be considered admirable."
I agree with this. But it is a fine, fine line that is difficult to pin down at best. Besides which, a character can be sexual perfectly well without losing her clothing, or suggesting oral sex with her tongue as much as Bayonetta purportedly does.
When I write my lady characters and my male characters, I do attempt to make them interchangeable in a general fashion. But the parts of them that are not interchangeable are generally not dependent on their gender, but on their personality. Gender does play a role in character development, just as it plays a role in natural human development within a society. But it doesn't have to be the only role. I haven't played Bayonetta, but I've been hearing a lot about it, and what is Bayonetta beyond sexy and good with a gun? Seriously, is there anything else to her? Because nobody has mentioned other qualities.
If the goal is to celebrate femininity, there are other ways to go about it, but the creator chose "sexy." Maybe he just did it so it would sell better, I don't care, the fact is that is the choice that was made. It wasn't made in a vacuum where there wasn't a history of accepted exploitation of women. There are plenty of ways to make a strong female character who is strong in female ways, without making her sexual or even strong physically! Accepted fact is that women typically are more emotional than men, and that in no way should be a flaw. The manga Kurohime, for all its faults, celebrates Kurohime's capacity for love, her ability to nurture, and her compassion. Her sympathy for others causes her pain but is a source of her strength. You couldn't make a manga about a man like that, and so to me, that is a way to portray a strong female character. She is also a sexual bad ass gunslinger witch who is, in fact, quite similar in a number of ways to Bayonetta (do note that Kurohime came first by far).
Another video game woman I think has been successful of late is Zelda in Spirit Tracks, who really just takes gender stereotypes for a ride. She is blatantly feminine (lots of pink and also, oh no, a rat! ugh) but still strong and admirable--not even in terms of being a huge sword-swinging suit of armour, but in terms of being willing to basically sacrifice her own body (and by extension, her life as she knew it) for the greater good, that is some strength of character. Zelda games, while being typically aimed at a different audience, do have some sexualized characters (OoT great fairies I am looking at you) but on the whole I think they have balanced things well. Twilight Princess Zelda, while being little more than an afterthought, had a good feminine visual design. Her outfit is feminine but not skanky. It displays her form well and makes it clear that she is a woman without making her into an object, and considering her minuscule role in that game, to reduce her to a sexual object would have really been a slap in the face.
Let's wrap this up before I start analyzing all my fandoms.
In short, I guess what I am trying to say is that I can't judge Bayonetta without playing it, so my thoughts on women, let me show you them!
I really did appreciate people sharing their thoughts with me last entry and I know that this entry is not exactly a thesis paper or anything, I'm not formally educated on the subject or anything, but I am still all about debating the issue.
FIRSTLY THOUGH, I like to debate things, I like to talk about feminism and video games. I also like and respect the opinions of all the people on my flist, and I know they are all different people so they are bound to have different thoughts and maybe disagree, but if you cannot disagree in a civil manner then just. Get out.
SECONDLY, I haven't played Bayonetta, just heard that god damn song on loop while working at Gamestop. So I'mma talk about what I essentially consider acceptable and unacceptable in media in general, using this Bayonetta article as a sort of starting point, and why. And I'm going to post this and then remember fifty other things I wanted to say, and then the comments will point out those things and I will grind my teeth.
Let us be on our merry way.
Okay, so.
First off, I think a big issue here is, can a female video game character be sexy and not be demeaning to women? Yes, of course.
But, as the article itself says, context is everything. How is her sexuality portrayed? This is not only the context of within the game, but within the context of people who are playing the game. You do not have sexism in a vacuum; we can put a man and a woman in the exact same situation and clothing, and it is society that tells us that one is acceptable and the other is not. And things are not okay just because they are art or parody or comic books; art reflects reality, reality reflects media. Something like a tv show or video game is a medium for communicating to a staggering amount of people, and you have to take into consideration that while your characters may not encompass your own values, you take responsibility for the message your media sends.
So, the article refers to Bayonetta being sexy within the context of the game, but not within the context of society. Why does Bayonetta being sexy set off alarms in the context of society? Again, a character can be sexy and not be insulting to women. But is she being sexy as an object for men to oogle or what? In fact, for ladies to oogle as well. And why is that potentially unacceptable?
Okay, so, society's context. What is society's context?
What does society say that men should be, and what does society say that women should be?
Now, what do men want to be, and what do women want to be?
What do men want women to be, and what do women want men to be?
Strong? Compassionate? Sexy? Demure? Confident? Understanding? Nurturing? Etc etc.
And which of those questions have the same answers?
Obviously, they're going to be different for each person, and I am not a man nor am I every woman, but typically in my experience (and I am totally open to being informed of opposing examples or trends or what have you) the ones that line up are:
What society says men should be is usually the same as what men want to be.
What society says women should be is usually the same as what men want women to be.
My point:
What video games say men and women should be is usually the same as what men want.
So. Does Bayonetta pander to what men want? What does it offer for me besides lots of sexuality? Because that's likely to just make me uncomfortable more than anything. Another commenter on my last entry said that in Bayonetta there was mucho fanservice, and in fact, "Bayocrotch" in large quantities. And you know, I don't need to see lots of naked breasts and vagina to celebrate having them.
To further this, men and women have different reactions to seeing their own genders portrayed in the same manner, which is part of, again, society's context and what has been acceptable for generations VS what is only becoming acceptable now. Most straight guys would probably not enjoy a game where the lead male character's penis was dangling about after a difficult boss battle, but I doubt they would raise a fuss about it, or take issue with the character's proportions being exaggerated (or if they did take issue, I would predict a reaction of scorn or disdain). But how many games like that are there? Guys haven't had to put up with being objectified to such an extent and popularity; of course they won't be bothered by it much. Men and women react differently, they are different. They are also equal in spite of if not because of those differences, just throwing that out there.
Quoting the article, "For years, video games have struggled to define what constitutes a positive portrayal of women. We've learned what isn't, over our checkered history of anime panty shots, gratuitous cleavage and breast physics."
Does Bayonetta lack these things? If Bayonetta contains these things, what makes them okay in Bayonetta and not okay elsewhere?
The article says that Bayonetta celebrates femininity, with symbols that, to me, speak of traditional feminine associations: lipstick, butterflies, etc. And of course Bayonetta's own sexuality. And, as a feminist, I believe that a girl who likes traditional things and to wear short pink skirts and frills and who wants to be a mother is making just as valid a choice as a girl who wants to wear pants and a suit and be an astro-physicist, or a girl who wears jeans and sneakers and wants to be a champion kick-boxer, etc etc. But in the context of society today, those choices are viewed very very differently. I am sure that reading, you had different opinions of those three different girls; why is that, and what were those opinions?
At this point, I'd like to say again that I haven't played Bayonetta and am not passing judgment on it, but am responding to ideas that the article and commenters to my last entry made me think about.
I really like the idea, however, that a character can be very feminine and sexy and also empowering. I really want to believe in it happening. I love characters who are not typically feminine, like Toph as an example. But I also love characters like Ty Lee and Zelda and Midna and Yoko, and to tell you the truth it makes me uncomfortable when Yoko's breasts are such a focus; I understand that something like her star-breasts were parody, but that doesn't remove the greater context of her filling in a long-standing traditional role of eye-candy. That doesn't mean that Gainax did not choose to pose her in all manner of ridiculous but sexual positions for the purpose of giving their male audience something to enjoy sexually.
"... it's unfair to strip video game women of their sexuality completely, or to assert that if a character is sexual that she must be getting exploited. ... we can accept that being mousy, tomboyish or turtle-necked is not the only way a woman can be considered admirable."
I agree with this. But it is a fine, fine line that is difficult to pin down at best. Besides which, a character can be sexual perfectly well without losing her clothing, or suggesting oral sex with her tongue as much as Bayonetta purportedly does.
When I write my lady characters and my male characters, I do attempt to make them interchangeable in a general fashion. But the parts of them that are not interchangeable are generally not dependent on their gender, but on their personality. Gender does play a role in character development, just as it plays a role in natural human development within a society. But it doesn't have to be the only role. I haven't played Bayonetta, but I've been hearing a lot about it, and what is Bayonetta beyond sexy and good with a gun? Seriously, is there anything else to her? Because nobody has mentioned other qualities.
If the goal is to celebrate femininity, there are other ways to go about it, but the creator chose "sexy." Maybe he just did it so it would sell better, I don't care, the fact is that is the choice that was made. It wasn't made in a vacuum where there wasn't a history of accepted exploitation of women. There are plenty of ways to make a strong female character who is strong in female ways, without making her sexual or even strong physically! Accepted fact is that women typically are more emotional than men, and that in no way should be a flaw. The manga Kurohime, for all its faults, celebrates Kurohime's capacity for love, her ability to nurture, and her compassion. Her sympathy for others causes her pain but is a source of her strength. You couldn't make a manga about a man like that, and so to me, that is a way to portray a strong female character. She is also a sexual bad ass gunslinger witch who is, in fact, quite similar in a number of ways to Bayonetta (do note that Kurohime came first by far).
Another video game woman I think has been successful of late is Zelda in Spirit Tracks, who really just takes gender stereotypes for a ride. She is blatantly feminine (lots of pink and also, oh no, a rat! ugh) but still strong and admirable--not even in terms of being a huge sword-swinging suit of armour, but in terms of being willing to basically sacrifice her own body (and by extension, her life as she knew it) for the greater good, that is some strength of character. Zelda games, while being typically aimed at a different audience, do have some sexualized characters (OoT great fairies I am looking at you) but on the whole I think they have balanced things well. Twilight Princess Zelda, while being little more than an afterthought, had a good feminine visual design. Her outfit is feminine but not skanky. It displays her form well and makes it clear that she is a woman without making her into an object, and considering her minuscule role in that game, to reduce her to a sexual object would have really been a slap in the face.
Let's wrap this up before I start analyzing all my fandoms.
In short, I guess what I am trying to say is that I can't judge Bayonetta without playing it, so my thoughts on women, let me show you them!
I really did appreciate people sharing their thoughts with me last entry and I know that this entry is not exactly a thesis paper or anything, I'm not formally educated on the subject or anything, but I am still all about debating the issue.