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shinygobonkers April 8 2012, 23:33:18 UTC
yeah, i read valentes post and it was just... sad/depressing because it speaks to things, both within the sci-fi/fantasy genre and much more broadly, that are just...true :/

(and depressing because to me, its not really an individual matter because individuals, if they are so inclined, can always grow, change, expand their worldview etc. but on a much broader, society/cultural level...things change, and yet they don't...)

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tealterror0 April 9 2012, 15:16:37 UTC
I tend to agree with Martin Luther King, Jr. on this one: "The arc of history is long, but it bends toward justice." I think the society/culture of our county and planet have changed a lot, even in just the past 50-60 years. There are setbacks, of course, and in a lot of ways we're still the same. But in the long run, I think things do change. Just really, really slowly.

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jordan179 April 9 2012, 00:30:33 UTC
I don't agree with the implicit theory that men should especially avoid publicly disagreeing with women just because they are men. IMO that would not be showing "respect" for women -- people I respect I can disagree with logically; it is only people I do not respect whom I fear to disagree with because I think they can't handle it.

Yes, obviously threats are wrong.

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inverarity April 9 2012, 01:08:39 UTC
I don't agree with the implicit theory that men should especially avoid publicly disagreeing with women just because they are men.

Come off it, I didn't say or imply any such thing. I do think a man should think once, twice, and maybe three times before telling a woman she's being a shrill hysterical bitch when she says that men "joking" about wanting to fuck her is misogynistic, though.

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crinklebat April 9 2012, 01:13:56 UTC
The problem isn't the fact of public disagreement, which of course is expected and even hoped for when one expresses one's opinions in a public forum. It's the tone of that disagreement that's troubling.

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dv8nation April 9 2012, 05:48:34 UTC
Of course, if you bring that up you get accused of making a "tonal arguement." Which really means "How *dare* you demand that I be civil! You have no idea how oppressed I am. I have a RIGHT to be hostile!!"

And I have had this arugment made to me.

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tealterror0 April 9 2012, 15:18:10 UTC
And now for my fourth comment on this post...

I too was once "That Guy." I don't think I ever downplayed rape or anything like that, but I was the type who thought racism and sexism were basically over so why are the women and minorities still complaining? For various reasons (the biggest I assume just being simple maturity) I think I've grown out of it to a certain extent, though of course I'm sure I still make mistakes.

Incidentally, this was the same time that I was a libertarian. I find just from anecdotal evidence that almost all (white male) libertarians I know also tend to downplay sexism and racism. There's probably a connection here but I'm not sure what it is.

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inverarity April 9 2012, 23:08:15 UTC
The connection is that libertarians are assholes. I've never met one who wasn't.

(And yeah, while I never went full libertarian, I also had some libertarian leanings at the height of my asshole years.)

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tealterror0 April 9 2012, 23:16:41 UTC
I have known several libertarians who aren't assholes. Admittedly the more libertarian they are the more likely they are to be an asshole.

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jordan179 April 10 2012, 01:39:31 UTC
I'm a (white male) libertarian who is quite aware of the long history of sexism and racism, and wants to see it overcome. I don't think it can be overcome by discrimination in the opposite direction, but rather only by treating people as equals and demanding equal treatment from them in return, no matter who you or they are in terms of group identity.

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