Agreed about the "passion" of Mumblecore, and the DIY ethic, but as a person that has actually seen all the mumblecore films, let me be the first to say: don't buy the hype. All the movies are incredibly shallow, American navel-gazing (the Quiet City trailer is actually BETTER than the film itself) posing as substantial social critique -- and these filmmakers have the audacity to frame these films as "realistic" depictions of drifting urban youth. Please, enough movies about young, bourgeois-bohemian hipster white kids. Oddly enough, I actually met Andrew Bujalksi late last year at an art gallery (strangely, he's a friend of a friend -- leave it to the hipsters!) and came THISCLOSE to telling him to his face how much I found his films to be painfully pretentious. Of the films in the "mumblecore" hype machine "lol" and "The Puffy Chair" are the most tolerable, though I admit I recall "Hannah Takes the Stairs" most strongly due to the prominence of forever-cute Greta Gerwig.
Interestingly, a British friend came to stay with me for a couple weeks and we went to see some mumblecore films together. Her response was just... classic: "Americans take everything too seriously."
Okay, enough venting. I think I missed the point of this post and just started ranting; let me just say that, yeah, I admire the mumblecore kids' candor and passion, though I think that in many ways their aesthetic vision is not enough. If you'd like to see an absolutely brilliant film that tackles many of the same "hipster" issues (perhaps the most powerful American film of the last couple years), I strongly suggest Kelly Reichardt's Old Joy.
Re: hannah takes the stairs DVD ripintrigeroFebruary 3 2008, 04:42:56 UTC
hey super thanks for the link man! unfortunately it says this -- " Alle Ihrem Land (Philippines) zugewiesenen Download-Slots sind derzeit besetzt. Versuchen Sie es in einigen Stunden erneut oder installieren Sie die Megaupload Toolbar - dann gibt es für Sie keine Slot-Limitierung mehr!" and i don't know what that means but i'm thinking it says that the Philippines has only a limited number of download slots. shet! :D
oh wait lemme reposition this replyintrigeroFebruary 3 2008, 04:36:13 UTC
yeah but see you went out and saw all of them, haha :) that was my point-- these kids are making so much noise that they could entice someone who dislikes all the films to keep watching. and there's no way you would have done that if andrew bujalski was just andrew bujalski or the duplass brothers just came out with a small film that showed at sxsw.
bujalski seems like the type of guy you want to punch in the face when you meet him in person. is he?
and thanks for the Old Joy reco. i'll definitely check it out. seems like in terms of hipster cinema the real gems are the ones that are like mumblecore but don't claim to be, like Mike Ott's Analog Days, hahaa.
Mumblecore on paper?ex_compound644February 3 2008, 06:41:50 UTC
All the movies are incredibly shallow, American navel-gazing ... posing as substantial social critique -- and these filmmakers have the audacity to frame these films as "realistic" depictions of drifting urban youth. Please, enough movies about young, bourgeois-bohemian hipster white kids. Fair enough, E. If these movies strike you as disingenuous about their purpose, then you've got a valid point.
But what is it about the (digital) film medium that makes the Mumblecore 'canon' any more pretentious than a Daniel Clowes comic, or Optic Nerve, or ArtBabe? Your critique applies just as much to those texts, which you *seem* to have considerably more affection for. (And the 'usual suspects' at Fantagraphics/Top Shelf have no shortage of critical acclaim either.) So why do seem particularly spiteful towards Mumblecore?
See, admittedly, I don't know whether I have a proper basis for comparison here. I've only watched Funny Ha Ha (which I picked up by chance, on pirated DVD, without any prior context), but that seems to be the one regarded as the definitive pioneer of the whole Mumblecore 'oeuvre', anyway.
Could it be that you're willing to let Ghost World (et al) off the hook, because you read them at a time when the sentiments expressed seemed more genuine? Would you be any more critical, if you first read them at 22?
Conversely, Swanberg and Bujalski's films probably ring true to disaffected college freshmen, in the same way Optic Nerve did to somebody like me, when I was 19.
Re: Mumblecore on paper?intrigeroFebruary 3 2008, 08:00:05 UTC
yeah you see that's the interesting thing! i've always wanted to do a movie that was close in feel to Tomine's work. so when i heard about the M word i got really excited because it seemed like it was finally happening.
but then i saw the films and ya gotta admit, pao, they ARE quite amateurish.i mean, Funny Ha Ha didn't have an eighth of the depth or nuance that even Andi Watson has (whose work i dislike).
so i imagined your exercise and went back to college days and imagined getting a copy of Funny Ha Ha. and i think i would have had even less patience for it than i do now. a lot of the pre-mumblecore mumblecorish films like Go Fish or Suburbia were still better than this stuff. i think they hold up well today, and i don't think it's because of sentimentality.
Re: Mumblecore on paper?knowthewordsFebruary 4 2008, 01:22:05 UTC
I have no idea what you're saying. Swanberg and Bujalski and co. have both been adamant about their intended audiences: mid-20's, urban, disaffected youth. I'm right there in the middle (okay, okay, I'm not a white kid). I even like the Cassavetes films that these people are talking about! Now, why is it that I find them particularly pretentious?
It's because I feel that the movies themselves don't have anything new or interesting to say about anything and that their growing popularity is (partly) based on the fact that everyone involves is so young and so poor and all read Pitchfork. The story behind mumblecore is actually much more interesting than the films themselves.
Okay, cynicism aside, I genuinely believe that not all (indie) comix are created equal, and for every Ghost World or David Boring there is an absolutely horrendous, pretentious comix released (often by the same publishers). I'm willing to accept the possibility that "mumblecore" might be redeemed by an upcoming smattering of brilliant, provocative, daring films, but until that happens, Mumblecore 0 Daniel Clowes 1.
Lost in Americaex_compound644February 3 2008, 06:56:49 UTC
Interestingly, a British friend came to stay with me for a couple weeks and we went to see some mumblecore films together. Her response was just... classic: "Americans take everything too seriously." My question is: is Mumblecore strictly an American thing?
Doesn't a movie like Eagle vs. Shark count as Mumblecore? Granted, it comes across as more upbeat and less serious than its American counterparts, but it features most of the same thematic, emotional, and stylistic hallmarks?
Or does something have to be overly earnest and lacking in levity (or ironic distance) to qualify as Mumblecore?
After all, even something like Citizen Dog addresses contemporary urban loneliness. So where do the lines get drawn?
Is there a kind of checklist or formula? Like, "DIY production values + indie rock soundtrack + desolation of city life + awkward protagonists" = Mumblecore? (And if so, does this *inherently* prevent Mumblecore from becoming coopted as a template for future CW Network youth dramas?)
Re: Lost in AmericaintrigeroFebruary 3 2008, 08:08:52 UTC
i think Mumblecore is strictly an American thing but only RIGHT NOW. and the reason for that is, unlike genres, movies aren't part of a movement until they're declared as part of that movement. so, like, even though Mcore fits every rule of Dogme 95, they're not Dogme films and vice versa. I guess that's why David Gordon Green's films aren't counted as Mumblecore, even though they WOULD be like a perfect example of good Mumblecore.
Eagle Vs. Shark I'm not too sure if I would count as Mumblecore, simply because it's funny :D but you know what? they oughta make a sub-genre of films like that as well. starting from Rushmore all the way up to Napoleon Dynamite, Rocket Science and Eagle Vs. Shark. "stylized Salinger youth ironic dissafection cinema" hahaha
Citizen Dog naman is scripted and has special effects, so hindi rin counted yun. oh my God I can't believe I'm categorizing movies according to Mumblecore :)
Re: Lost in AmericaknowthewordsFebruary 4 2008, 01:25:22 UTC
I think the filmmakers themselves have postulated that mumblecore is specifically an American filmmaking set not due to the actual filmic styles deployed, but that a lot of the thematics and contexts of production they are tackling and employing are part of everyday life for young Americans. The movies are "supposed" to be about disenfranchised American youth living in a time of perpetual war and more or less economic recession since 9/11. Or so the filmmakers say (sigh).
DGG's new film, "Snow Angels", is coming out in a month! Hurray!
Re: Lost in AmericaknowthewordsFebruary 4 2008, 01:14:30 UTC
"mumblecore" is specifically american, because it's specifically, like, 8 young americans who are all friends and making movies. "mumblecore" is not a movement or an aesthetically coherent sensibility, it's just a buzzword. it's more or less similar to "future shock" -- all the Baltimore-based artists and friends who happen to live together and make music.
Interestingly, a British friend came to stay with me for a couple weeks and we went to see some mumblecore films together. Her response was just... classic: "Americans take everything too seriously."
Okay, enough venting. I think I missed the point of this post and just started ranting; let me just say that, yeah, I admire the mumblecore kids' candor and passion, though I think that in many ways their aesthetic vision is not enough. If you'd like to see an absolutely brilliant film that tackles many of the same "hipster" issues (perhaps the most powerful American film of the last couple years), I strongly suggest Kelly Reichardt's Old Joy.
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Part 2: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=9ZP49H5V
pw: luelinks
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Alle Ihrem Land (Philippines) zugewiesenen Download-Slots sind derzeit besetzt. Versuchen Sie es in einigen Stunden erneut oder installieren Sie die Megaupload Toolbar - dann gibt es für Sie keine Slot-Limitierung mehr!" and i don't know what that means but i'm thinking it says that the Philippines has only a limited number of download slots. shet! :D
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I don't read German, but that's the usual Megaupload message :)
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bujalski seems like the type of guy you want to punch in the face when you meet him in person. is he?
and thanks for the Old Joy reco. i'll definitely check it out. seems like in terms of hipster cinema the real gems are the ones that are like mumblecore but don't claim to be, like Mike Ott's Analog Days, hahaa.
Reply
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Fair enough, E. If these movies strike you as disingenuous about their purpose, then you've got a valid point.
But what is it about the (digital) film medium that makes the Mumblecore 'canon' any more pretentious than a Daniel Clowes comic, or Optic Nerve, or ArtBabe? Your critique applies just as much to those texts, which you *seem* to have considerably more affection for. (And the 'usual suspects' at Fantagraphics/Top Shelf have no shortage of critical acclaim either.) So why do seem particularly spiteful towards Mumblecore?
See, admittedly, I don't know whether I have a proper basis for comparison here. I've only watched Funny Ha Ha (which I picked up by chance, on pirated DVD, without any prior context), but that seems to be the one regarded as the definitive pioneer of the whole Mumblecore 'oeuvre', anyway.
Could it be that you're willing to let Ghost World (et al) off the hook, because you read them at a time when the sentiments expressed seemed more genuine? Would you be any more critical, if you first read them at 22?
Conversely, Swanberg and Bujalski's films probably ring true to disaffected college freshmen, in the same way Optic Nerve did to somebody like me, when I was 19.
Reply
but then i saw the films and ya gotta admit, pao, they ARE quite amateurish.i mean, Funny Ha Ha didn't have an eighth of the depth or nuance that even Andi Watson has (whose work i dislike).
so i imagined your exercise and went back to college days and imagined getting a copy of Funny Ha Ha. and i think i would have had even less patience for it than i do now. a lot of the pre-mumblecore mumblecorish films like Go Fish or Suburbia were still better than this stuff. i think they hold up well today, and i don't think it's because of sentimentality.
Reply
It's because I feel that the movies themselves don't have anything new or interesting to say about anything and that their growing popularity is (partly) based on the fact that everyone involves is so young and so poor and all read Pitchfork. The story behind mumblecore is actually much more interesting than the films themselves.
Okay, cynicism aside, I genuinely believe that not all (indie) comix are created equal, and for every Ghost World or David Boring there is an absolutely horrendous, pretentious comix released (often by the same publishers). I'm willing to accept the possibility that "mumblecore" might be redeemed by an upcoming smattering of brilliant, provocative, daring films, but until that happens, Mumblecore 0 Daniel Clowes 1.
Reply
My question is: is Mumblecore strictly an American thing?
Doesn't a movie like Eagle vs. Shark count as Mumblecore? Granted, it comes across as more upbeat and less serious than its American counterparts, but it features most of the same thematic, emotional, and stylistic hallmarks?
Or does something have to be overly earnest and lacking in levity (or ironic distance) to qualify as Mumblecore?
After all, even something like Citizen Dog addresses contemporary urban loneliness. So where do the lines get drawn?
Is there a kind of checklist or formula? Like, "DIY production values + indie rock soundtrack + desolation of city life + awkward protagonists" = Mumblecore? (And if so, does this *inherently* prevent Mumblecore from becoming coopted as a template for future CW Network youth dramas?)
Reply
Eagle Vs. Shark I'm not too sure if I would count as Mumblecore, simply because it's funny :D but you know what? they oughta make a sub-genre of films like that as well. starting from Rushmore all the way up to Napoleon Dynamite, Rocket Science and Eagle Vs. Shark. "stylized Salinger youth ironic dissafection cinema" hahaha
Citizen Dog naman is scripted and has special effects, so hindi rin counted yun. oh my God I can't believe I'm categorizing movies according to Mumblecore :)
Reply
DGG's new film, "Snow Angels", is coming out in a month! Hurray!
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